Pinkflower7783
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Walter needs Gary, Gary needs Mary, Kermit needs Piggy, the Muppets need Kermit, the dog is stealing the cheese and it's really only 4:30.
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Your Thoughts: "Muppets Most Wanted" Theatrical Film
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LouisTheOtter
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Stray thoughts:
* It's been mentioned before on this thread but I wish it had been made clearer that Nadya figures out that it's Kermit instead of Constantine. The transition seems a little mushy - one scene she's insisting he's Constantine, the next she's casually calling him Kermit (and why is he still in the gulag if she knows he's Kermit?). I would have preferred a big "reveal" scene where Nadya flashes back to a 10-year-old version of herself watching TMS (not unlike what the REAL Tina Fey says she was doing at that age) but I still got a charge out of the scene where she kisses a picture from her "Kermit shrine" and sinks to the floor. (And the Kermit version of the traditional Russian wooden doll was a nice touch.)
* Was I the only one that found Constantine's escape scene looked like a video game?
* Crazy Harry's insistence that somebody had said "explosion" or something close enough to warrant one was one of my all-time favourite moments with that particular character.
* Nice foreshadowing in "We're Doing A Sequel": Kermit is rejecting everybody's ideas BEFORE THE WORLD TOUR EVEN STARTS.
* Mrs. Otter and I both found that Celine Dion's appearance (and disappearance) during "Something So Right" seemed a bit disjointed. Upon further reflection I'm realizing that this may have been an attempt to replicate the "Man or Muppet" appearance by Jim Parsons, but while it was clear that Parsons was Human Walter, we still have no idea who Celine was supposed to be. (Piggy's muse? Fairy godmother?) I know Piggy sang one of her songs on the tour and wanted to sing more, but it still wasn't clear. Didn't ruin the song - just made it a little odd.
* I alluded to this earlier but this is one of the most "indoor" Muppet movies ever released, especially compared to TM2011 which had so much happening outside. I know they were tight for time but I would have loved to see some of the characters checking out some of the local culture in Berlin, Madrid, Dublin and London. Ah well - maybe in the bonus features...
* The Dublin show was the only one that let me down a little. The ballet dancer is obviously quite talented, but apart from the cameos by the new Muppet Leprechauns in the audience and at the latest scene of the crime, this didn't seem very Irish at all. Again, maybe we'll see more in the deleted scenes, but wouldn't it have made sense to have The Leprechaun Brothers sing "Danny Boy" (although I believe Animal was gone on the search for Kermit by that point)? After all, if the Electric Mayhem can do a Riverdance spoof in VMX, why not here? Or perhaps Constantine could have mangled "It's Not Easy Bein' Green" before he proposed to Piggy...
* Lines that made me laugh even though I'd seen them a million times in the trailers: (1) Walter: "WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH KERMIT?!" (2) Constantine trying and failing to nail Kermit-isms with vintage footage; (3) "My name first, then spacebar, spacebar, spacebar, your name."
* It's been mentioned before on this thread but I wish it had been made clearer that Nadya figures out that it's Kermit instead of Constantine. The transition seems a little mushy - one scene she's insisting he's Constantine, the next she's casually calling him Kermit (and why is he still in the gulag if she knows he's Kermit?). I would have preferred a big "reveal" scene where Nadya flashes back to a 10-year-old version of herself watching TMS (not unlike what the REAL Tina Fey says she was doing at that age) but I still got a charge out of the scene where she kisses a picture from her "Kermit shrine" and sinks to the floor. (And the Kermit version of the traditional Russian wooden doll was a nice touch.)
* Was I the only one that found Constantine's escape scene looked like a video game?
* Crazy Harry's insistence that somebody had said "explosion" or something close enough to warrant one was one of my all-time favourite moments with that particular character.
* Nice foreshadowing in "We're Doing A Sequel": Kermit is rejecting everybody's ideas BEFORE THE WORLD TOUR EVEN STARTS.
* Mrs. Otter and I both found that Celine Dion's appearance (and disappearance) during "Something So Right" seemed a bit disjointed. Upon further reflection I'm realizing that this may have been an attempt to replicate the "Man or Muppet" appearance by Jim Parsons, but while it was clear that Parsons was Human Walter, we still have no idea who Celine was supposed to be. (Piggy's muse? Fairy godmother?) I know Piggy sang one of her songs on the tour and wanted to sing more, but it still wasn't clear. Didn't ruin the song - just made it a little odd.
* I alluded to this earlier but this is one of the most "indoor" Muppet movies ever released, especially compared to TM2011 which had so much happening outside. I know they were tight for time but I would have loved to see some of the characters checking out some of the local culture in Berlin, Madrid, Dublin and London. Ah well - maybe in the bonus features...
* The Dublin show was the only one that let me down a little. The ballet dancer is obviously quite talented, but apart from the cameos by the new Muppet Leprechauns in the audience and at the latest scene of the crime, this didn't seem very Irish at all. Again, maybe we'll see more in the deleted scenes, but wouldn't it have made sense to have The Leprechaun Brothers sing "Danny Boy" (although I believe Animal was gone on the search for Kermit by that point)? After all, if the Electric Mayhem can do a Riverdance spoof in VMX, why not here? Or perhaps Constantine could have mangled "It's Not Easy Bein' Green" before he proposed to Piggy...
* Lines that made me laugh even though I'd seen them a million times in the trailers: (1) Walter: "WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH KERMIT?!" (2) Constantine trying and failing to nail Kermit-isms with vintage footage; (3) "My name first, then spacebar, spacebar, spacebar, your name."
Ruahnna
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Still thinking over here...here's my thoughts.
It wasn't the plot, actually, that bothered me. It was the way our well-known characters were manipulated to further that plot--even when it seemed out of character--that left me feeling dismayed and disgruntled around the edges. For instance....
Kermit being replaced by Constantine could have had a million small gags running throughout the movie, culminating in a big, group Ah ha! moment. Originally, Dominick explains Kermit's voice difference as a cold. Wouldn't it have been more insidious (and villainous) to suggest that Kermit's not quite the performer that he used to be--he's gotten rusty and his voice isn't just isn't up for what it once was. This could be told (one at time) to his closest friends--Piggy, Fozzie, Scooter, Gonzo, Teeth--in a confidential manner, and never in Kermit's hearing. His friends could have been cautioned about mentioning it to him (or to each other) because it would make Kermit feel like less of a performer, a has-been. This whole string of conversations could have been filmed in next to no time, with Dominick telling the story once, but having the muppet he's telling it to shift so that it sounds like one explanation, but the audience would understand that it had taken place several times. This would have played right off the last movie, which MMW obviously has no problem doing. That way, even when Kermit's friends noticed that Kermit was off or odd or something, they would have kept it to themselves out of affection and loyalty--NOT because they were too stupid to notice the difference. (grumble, grumble)
This idea would work equally well to explain Kermit’s fainting from stage fright, his desire to appease the rest of the cast in ways he never had before and his making up to Piggy. Kermit’s friends would see Kermit trying hard to please them—perhaps as a way to make things up to them—and wouldn’t comment on his loss of masterful leadership (ahem) because they didn’t want to make him feel bad.
Walter could still have been the voice of doubt, saying, “Um, guys—was Kermit always like this?” and getting hushed and shushed for pointing it out. Likewise, Animal could have been chastised for “picking on the frog when he’s not himself.” (rim tap please)
There were soooo many missed opportunities here that had nothing at all to do with budget or performers or time—they had to do with the script, which could have been both more cleverly written and truer to the characters. I won’t go into a big diatribe about it, but I will admit that I was appalled—appalled!—to hear Nick Stoller say in an interview that he loved writing for Fozzzie “because he’s so stupid.” I think back to the complicated puns that Fozzie came up with, the telephone gag, the way he rationalized with Kermit about his act and I don’t see stupid—I see naïve and unworldly. If Fozzie doesn’t seem like his old self, it may have something to do with the fact that the script considers him an imbecile. Likewise, Gonzo has a couple of good lines and the indoor running of the bulls rang very true, but Gonzo has also been hailed as the “soul” of the muppets. In MMW, he and Camilla share one show-idea scene and are virtual strangers the rest of the time. Contrast that, won’t you, with Gonzo blissfully asleep in the rafters of the old Muppet Theater with the chickens, or with Camilla’s wise and knowing encouragement of her weird lover's secret dream to get back into his spandex. I also felt that Floyd Pepper really had some nice moments in the last movie, especially with Animal, and he and the rest of the band-members are sort of consigned to the masses who just want to do what they want to do. If we go with the idea that the Muppets just got back together after a long time apart, don’t you think they’d had quite their fill of doing whatever the heck they wanted? (And, as Dr. Phil would say--How's that working for you?) Wouldn’t they want to come together and bond as a performing family? Wasn’t that why they all came back together in the last movie?
I do not wish to spoil anyone’s enjoyment of the movie (and, knowing muppet fans to be independent and imaginative thinkers, I don’t for a minute suspect that I can seriously impact anyone else’s opinion) , but I am interested in thoughtful dialogue. I have really enjoyed reading what others saw and liked in the movie—it gives me things to look forward to when the movie comes out on dvd—but I also want to understand my own point of view and why this movie left me feeling very different from the last one.
It wasn't the plot, actually, that bothered me. It was the way our well-known characters were manipulated to further that plot--even when it seemed out of character--that left me feeling dismayed and disgruntled around the edges. For instance....
Kermit being replaced by Constantine could have had a million small gags running throughout the movie, culminating in a big, group Ah ha! moment. Originally, Dominick explains Kermit's voice difference as a cold. Wouldn't it have been more insidious (and villainous) to suggest that Kermit's not quite the performer that he used to be--he's gotten rusty and his voice isn't just isn't up for what it once was. This could be told (one at time) to his closest friends--Piggy, Fozzie, Scooter, Gonzo, Teeth--in a confidential manner, and never in Kermit's hearing. His friends could have been cautioned about mentioning it to him (or to each other) because it would make Kermit feel like less of a performer, a has-been. This whole string of conversations could have been filmed in next to no time, with Dominick telling the story once, but having the muppet he's telling it to shift so that it sounds like one explanation, but the audience would understand that it had taken place several times. This would have played right off the last movie, which MMW obviously has no problem doing. That way, even when Kermit's friends noticed that Kermit was off or odd or something, they would have kept it to themselves out of affection and loyalty--NOT because they were too stupid to notice the difference. (grumble, grumble)
This idea would work equally well to explain Kermit’s fainting from stage fright, his desire to appease the rest of the cast in ways he never had before and his making up to Piggy. Kermit’s friends would see Kermit trying hard to please them—perhaps as a way to make things up to them—and wouldn’t comment on his loss of masterful leadership (ahem) because they didn’t want to make him feel bad.
Walter could still have been the voice of doubt, saying, “Um, guys—was Kermit always like this?” and getting hushed and shushed for pointing it out. Likewise, Animal could have been chastised for “picking on the frog when he’s not himself.” (rim tap please)
There were soooo many missed opportunities here that had nothing at all to do with budget or performers or time—they had to do with the script, which could have been both more cleverly written and truer to the characters. I won’t go into a big diatribe about it, but I will admit that I was appalled—appalled!—to hear Nick Stoller say in an interview that he loved writing for Fozzzie “because he’s so stupid.” I think back to the complicated puns that Fozzie came up with, the telephone gag, the way he rationalized with Kermit about his act and I don’t see stupid—I see naïve and unworldly. If Fozzie doesn’t seem like his old self, it may have something to do with the fact that the script considers him an imbecile. Likewise, Gonzo has a couple of good lines and the indoor running of the bulls rang very true, but Gonzo has also been hailed as the “soul” of the muppets. In MMW, he and Camilla share one show-idea scene and are virtual strangers the rest of the time. Contrast that, won’t you, with Gonzo blissfully asleep in the rafters of the old Muppet Theater with the chickens, or with Camilla’s wise and knowing encouragement of her weird lover's secret dream to get back into his spandex. I also felt that Floyd Pepper really had some nice moments in the last movie, especially with Animal, and he and the rest of the band-members are sort of consigned to the masses who just want to do what they want to do. If we go with the idea that the Muppets just got back together after a long time apart, don’t you think they’d had quite their fill of doing whatever the heck they wanted? (And, as Dr. Phil would say--How's that working for you?) Wouldn’t they want to come together and bond as a performing family? Wasn’t that why they all came back together in the last movie?
I do not wish to spoil anyone’s enjoyment of the movie (and, knowing muppet fans to be independent and imaginative thinkers, I don’t for a minute suspect that I can seriously impact anyone else’s opinion) , but I am interested in thoughtful dialogue. I have really enjoyed reading what others saw and liked in the movie—it gives me things to look forward to when the movie comes out on dvd—but I also want to understand my own point of view and why this movie left me feeling very different from the last one.
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You know, I see the point you're making Aunt Ru.
With all due respect, Mr. Stoler shouldn't say writing for Fozzie is easy because the bear is stupid. It seems he's gotten stuck with that label since MTI with the addition of Mr. Bimbo who lives in his finger—which to this day I still don't understand the "ha-ha" behind that when Mr. Bimbo could have been a character himself.
When Dominick walks in and suggests the Muppets go on a world tour, I'm thinking back to Fozzie's comments at the group reunion in TMTM... "Who's this guy? And why is he approaching the Muppets as if anyone can just come in to suggest a movie plot with no need of security clearance?" Guess Bobo wasn't available that day.
The plotpoint you note could work like the telephone game, an example already existing in the Sesame song "Love, Amy" about a postcard
got one time and then everybody else just keeps adding more and more symptoms. That could have a cleverer way to intimate Constantine's replacement of Kermit without the rest of the gang really catching on, because they're being misdirected further from the truth any time someone else asks about it.
When the third Muppet movie of this current trilogy comes to be, I rully rully hope they can merge more of the novelization into what actually gets shot and shown at movie theaters. I feel that the script is good but it keeps missing stuff that should be included for the story to make fuller sense.
At least we've gotten two good new Muppet movies and everyone's talking Muppets in a positive healthy manner. That makes me happy. And I'd like to think it makes the performers both past and present happy as well.
With all due respect, Mr. Stoler shouldn't say writing for Fozzie is easy because the bear is stupid. It seems he's gotten stuck with that label since MTI with the addition of Mr. Bimbo who lives in his finger—which to this day I still don't understand the "ha-ha" behind that when Mr. Bimbo could have been a character himself.
When Dominick walks in and suggests the Muppets go on a world tour, I'm thinking back to Fozzie's comments at the group reunion in TMTM... "Who's this guy? And why is he approaching the Muppets as if anyone can just come in to suggest a movie plot with no need of security clearance?" Guess Bobo wasn't available that day.
The plotpoint you note could work like the telephone game, an example already existing in the Sesame song "Love, Amy" about a postcard
got one time and then everybody else just keeps adding more and more symptoms. That could have a cleverer way to intimate Constantine's replacement of Kermit without the rest of the gang really catching on, because they're being misdirected further from the truth any time someone else asks about it.When the third Muppet movie of this current trilogy comes to be, I rully rully hope they can merge more of the novelization into what actually gets shot and shown at movie theaters. I feel that the script is good but it keeps missing stuff that should be included for the story to make fuller sense.
At least we've gotten two good new Muppet movies and everyone's talking Muppets in a positive healthy manner. That makes me happy. And I'd like to think it makes the performers both past and present happy as well.
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BTW: @LouisTheOtter:
Checking the cast list for MMW on Muppet Wiki says that Selene Dione was meant to be Piggy's Fairy Godmother, which kind of makes more sense if you think of Something So Right as the requisit Piggy fantasy/centric song in each Muppet movie.
Checking the cast list for MMW on Muppet Wiki says that Selene Dione was meant to be Piggy's Fairy Godmother, which kind of makes more sense if you think of Something So Right as the requisit Piggy fantasy/centric song in each Muppet movie.
Pinkflower7783
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I hate to be the spelling police but it's Celine Dion. Lol
piggyinmanhatte
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Thank you so much, Count! I had no idea that was possible!
CensoredAlso
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I hear you, man, I hear you.
Actually, things started off OK. I really enjoyed the Sequel number. That stayed in my head for the whole movie and I was grateful.
Because after that, it felt like a very long 2 hours. Starting with that first scene where Ricky Gervais is conning the Muppets. I started having flashbacks to Muppets Take Manhattan which had a similar scene. That is, I remembered how clever that scene was and how embarrassing the MMW scene is.
I mean, you had Dabney Coleman and the Muppets taking satirical jabs at pop culture and society (“Cops, shootings, car chases—that kind of thing?”). Best of all, you saw the Muppets cleverly seeing through the con man's deception.
In MMW...yeah...the Muppets are fooled by a bad guy who is literally named Badguy...Wow...
(I want to take this moment to thank the MPAA and their allies for all they've done to ruin motion pictures.
)It wasn't all bad. I actually adored the scenes with Kermit and Tina Fey in the Gulag. They had great chemistry. The scene where Kermit and the prison gang are escaping is very funny...except the whole time I thought, "Yeah this would be a whole lot funnier if it was the Muppets doing this and not just some extras..."
But anytime the story went away from Kermit and focused on the other Muppets, I lost interest. It was painful to see them portrayed as so gullible and foolish. Not painful from a dramatic standpoint, just from a poor writing one. Plus, it felt like they were a little too eager to pack as many characters into the shot as they could. Most of the time I felt like I was looking at a static group photo, rather than getting to know any of the characters. They'd pay lip service to the funny Muppet antics of the past. But much like Muppets (2011) we barely get to actually see them doing any of these things. Once again the human cameos ended up making a bigger impression on me than the Muppets themselves. I recall saying back in 2011 I hoped that would be fixed for the next film. Looks like I'm still left hoping...
Overall I'm rating this a G. G for Gulag, because oddly enough that's where this film actually shined. If I could get a DVD of this film and just edited it down to those scenes, I'd be a happy Muppet fan.
As it is now...yeah I'm going to take Gervais' advice and watch some "Kermit tapes" - like the one where the Muppets hoodwink Dabney Coleman! Now that was an inspiring moment.
ryhoyarbie
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Several things that bugged me with this film....I didn't feel like it was as great as other people are saying. Maybe I need to see it again sometime.
-One thing that I didn't like is how the other muppets couldn't figure out that Kermit wasn't Kermit and yet Walter, the newbie of the group, was picking up vibes that Kermit wasn't himself and wanted to investigate more. So characters like Piggy (the girlfriend), Fozzie (the best friend), Rowlf (the guy that's been around since the 1960's), Scooter (stage manager/second in command of the Muppet Show) couldn't put the pieces together and figure out Kermit wasn't Kermit???................It's like the characters took stupid pills. When Constantine acting as Kermit calls Fozzie Fonzie, Piggy Miss Pig, Scooter little boy with glasses, that doesn't strike everyone that Kermit isn't really the real deal?
-When Fozzie, Animal, and Walter leave after they found out that Constantine was acting as Kermit and when Constantine as Kermit tells the rest of the gang those three have left, no one wondered why Fozzie left since he's been with the group since the beginning. None of the other members of the Electric Mayhem seem to even care that Animal left either except Floyd. That's another thing I didn't like.
-The next thing I didn't like is there is not another song from the Electric Mayhem again........Why not write a song for all six members of the band and let all six members have lines for the song.....The last song that was sung by the band or a band member in a theatrical movie was in The Muppets Take Manhattan with Dr. Teeth singing "You can't take no for an answer". That was back in 1984.
-Back to the band again, Zoot didn't say anything again, and Lips said nothing......Really, can't these characters say something? Floyd and Animal got the most lines, while Dr. Teeth and Janice got a few lines here and there.
-Another gripe I had was the first thirty minutes or so had a lot of stuff going on. The pacing was just all over the place for the first thirty minutes before the movie found it's footing.
-The last thing is for the next film, if there is a next film, the movie shouldn't connect with this one or the last one. The first three muppet movies in the Jim Henson era were independent of each other. Make the next one an independent one that doesn't connect to the previous two.
-One thing that I didn't like is how the other muppets couldn't figure out that Kermit wasn't Kermit and yet Walter, the newbie of the group, was picking up vibes that Kermit wasn't himself and wanted to investigate more. So characters like Piggy (the girlfriend), Fozzie (the best friend), Rowlf (the guy that's been around since the 1960's), Scooter (stage manager/second in command of the Muppet Show) couldn't put the pieces together and figure out Kermit wasn't Kermit???................It's like the characters took stupid pills. When Constantine acting as Kermit calls Fozzie Fonzie, Piggy Miss Pig, Scooter little boy with glasses, that doesn't strike everyone that Kermit isn't really the real deal?
-When Fozzie, Animal, and Walter leave after they found out that Constantine was acting as Kermit and when Constantine as Kermit tells the rest of the gang those three have left, no one wondered why Fozzie left since he's been with the group since the beginning. None of the other members of the Electric Mayhem seem to even care that Animal left either except Floyd. That's another thing I didn't like.
-The next thing I didn't like is there is not another song from the Electric Mayhem again........Why not write a song for all six members of the band and let all six members have lines for the song.....The last song that was sung by the band or a band member in a theatrical movie was in The Muppets Take Manhattan with Dr. Teeth singing "You can't take no for an answer". That was back in 1984.
-Back to the band again, Zoot didn't say anything again, and Lips said nothing......Really, can't these characters say something? Floyd and Animal got the most lines, while Dr. Teeth and Janice got a few lines here and there.
-Another gripe I had was the first thirty minutes or so had a lot of stuff going on. The pacing was just all over the place for the first thirty minutes before the movie found it's footing.
-The last thing is for the next film, if there is a next film, the movie shouldn't connect with this one or the last one. The first three muppet movies in the Jim Henson era were independent of each other. Make the next one an independent one that doesn't connect to the previous two.
CensoredAlso
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You know what it reminded me of? The infamous Star Trek V. The villain was a guy good at manipulation who ends up taking over the group. The shining hero, Captain Kirk (or in this case Kermit or Walter) is the only one who sees through him. Meanwhile the crew (or in this case, the rest of the Muppets) are made to look like gullible fools or pathetic comic relief. Painful. Come on, these are the Muppets who saw through Murray Plotsky! And they fall for a bad guy named Badguy? Really?
Thankfully it's not Star Trek V most fans tend to remember.
