New Muppet movie in development for potential 2013 release

[WillyThePig]

You

Quoted for truth.

I, for one, am sick of rationalizing all the things wrong with Henson that make Disney a competent parent company for The Muppets, and I'm also sick of saying Muppets From Space and Muppet Wizard of Oz. I'm also tired of explaining that things that are in the show aren't there in the movies, and never were. It's always the same argument and some Debbie Downer's always going to whine about how a franchise isn't exactly the same as it was forever, and that somehow it should be frozen in time. Nothing maintains the same level of quality throughout, and things always change. Simpsons, SNL, Star Wars, Looney Tunes... people leave, people die, you have different people running things, writing things... things are going to be different no matter what. Even if the same people are in charge. You can't flash freeze a franchise at its peak. The best you can do is get as close to it as possible, missing some intangible nuance that only the original creators, writers, and actors can provide.

Either we can realize that there's going to a slight difference and role with it, or we can watch the old dusty videos again and become increasingly irrelevant when we talk about them outside of a nostalgic fan base. Oh, and if they don't make new projects, there's no reason to put anything on a modern home video, so ...yeah... dusty old VHS tapes that are rapidly disintegrating. Say what you will, Jim didn't want his projects to languish in relative obscurity due to cultural irrelevance. Look at Mighty Mouse. Last time he had anything it was a 1980's cartoon series. When was the last time you heard anyone talk about Mighty Mouse that didn't include the words "childhood" or "remember?" NO ONE wants that to be the Muppets. New projects are a necessary evil to keep the classic stuff and merchandise flowing.

You are absolutely right. Nobody is saying that things shouldn't change or evolve. I am saying that as they are changing they are producting work that doesn't have the same muppets spirit that made them famous in the first place but instead are trying to make it like the rest of the crap Disney produces nowadays.

 

[WillyThePig]

I understand that to an extent, but what you're talking about started happening a long time before Disney ownership. In fact, some of that began occurring while Jim Henson was still alive with the children's cartoon Muppet Babies and the videos aimed at toddlers such as Hey, You're as Funny as Fozzie Bear. Even if you let those slide, you're blaming Disney for something that the Jim Henson Company started doing in films like Muppets From Space and Kermit's Swamp Years. Those sink to such depths that Disney would never have greenlit.I appreciate that you may not have liked the 2011 film, but that's just one project in a long history that you don't seem to be aware of.

Also, Walt Disney died in 1966! The Jungle Book, Pooh. Who Framed Roger Rabbit, the famous Disney renaissance that included The Little Mermaid, Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast and The Lion King and so many other projects of amazing quality occurred after his death. So, saying the quality declined since his death is 100% inaccurate. You seem to have a simplified history of things that doesn't quite line up with reality.

okay, I wasn't saying Disney hasn't produced anything good since Walt died, but it seems like most of the stuff they are producing work that is rushed, cheesy and not worth anyone's time...take a look at the Disney channel. as I already mentioned, there is nothing but a bunch of crappy, unrealistic sitcoms and very stupid stupid movies like Beverly Hills Chihuahua, Snow puppies (or whatever it's called), Fred clause..that kind of crap. So I wasnt saying that they haven't produced anything good, (I love lion king) I'm just saying that everyone knows and loves the projects from before walts death, but it seems like today that quality in anything they make is found few and far between.
And youd think with all those failed spinoff childrens shows that the Henson company tried that Disney would cut that crap out before they screw up again.

 

[Drtooth]

Hey. Have you seen that awesome new Fraggle Rock movie?

You didn't?

No one did because it was never made?

It's the same old complaint every single time. I don't see Disney trying to quell the Muppets as much as the detractors think they are. I have concern they're focusing more on Marvel and Pixar, and no doubt Star Wars once the check clears. They need a bigger merchandising presence. THAT is the only problem I have with Disney's ownership.

Tell me, how would Warner Bros, who couldn't even handle their own classic characters, Sony which... look at the Smurfs movie... heck, look at how Sony was to Henson in 98 and 99. And the less said about Henson... is probably true since they can't do anything that isn't a CGI kid's show.

I honestly don't see this niggling little "Disney killing the Muppets" thing. And whatever's there, I don't see any different than it was after Henson's death to before the Disney buyout.

I'd rather a competent company that actually managed to give the Muppets their first theatrical film since Tim Hill killed the franchise and then a second one a few years later than someone who'll sit on the license, make one or two TV specials we'll be okay with and then a big load of nothing after.

 

[jvcarroll]

It can be both. You can have dated elements and still have a timeless story. The theme of the bullied hero/heroine is timeless. But the whole "I'm a strong woman and I need more!" does instantly make me think "Ah yes, this was following the feminist movement." It was your basic trying too hard to be relevant and even as a kid I saw through it.

I think this "timelessness" you speak of is relative to you and that others see timelessness in their own way. The need of female protagonists to be rescued by a man and the fact that most of Disney's villains in that era were women with power are also dated concepts. Even Grimm's original fairy tales speak to the times that they were written. The fact that Disney changes them, and the particular changes they make, reflect that era as well. I guess we see what we want to see. It's all valid and, again, it's all relative.

okay, I wasn't saying Disney hasn't produced anything good since Walt died, but it seems like most of the stuff they are producing work that is rushed, cheesy and not worth anyone's time...take a look at the Disney channel. as I already mentioned, there is nothing but a bunch of crappy, unrealistic sitcoms and very stupid stupid movies like Beverly Hills Chihuahua, Snow puppies (or whatever it's called), Fred clause..that kind of crap. So I wasnt saying that they haven't produced anything good, (I love lion king) I'm just saying that everyone knows and loves the projects from before walts death, but it seems like today that quality in anything they make is found few and far between.
And youd think with all those failed spinoff childrens shows that the Henson company tried that Disney would cut that crap out before they screw up again.

It's been nearly 50 years since Walt Disney's death and there have been countless wonderful projects since then. I always write off such "when Walt was alive" sort of griping as silliness for that reason. Like most adults without kids, I don't really think of the Disney Channel or the straight-to-DVD films at all. That's not an accurate assessment of the property. I'm not saying there isn't a lot of garbage they produce. There is. And this recent entertainment model of buying brands concerns me. However, they've done those properties proud. The future at Marvel has never been brighter and the Muppets are back in public consciousness as vital characters rather than relics. Even Mickey Mouse and friends are making an active comeback! There's a lot more good than the pessimism I'm reading in these posts.

I will admit that the 2011 Muppets was more movement than movie. It played like a tip-of-the-hat advertisement for the brand. I think that's okay because its what they needed. Nothing else seemed to work. That did the trick and the new film sounds wonderful. There's been great buzz about the participants this time around, reportedly more performer input and more room for the Muppets' classic improvisation. That says a lot. To borrow some comic book terms, the Muppets "Golden Age" is gone. The "Silver Age" was that of the 90's and beyond. I feel like this is the "Bronze Age" in that they can address the "Flanderization" of the characters and set things right on a course that's relevant to today's audiences.

(See what I did there? I brought things back around to the topic. )

 

[jvcarroll]

I still don't subscribe to the term "timeless." As hard as you may try, everything ever made is the product of it's era. You'll see stars of the day in those roles, and the occasional reference to something. Things shouldn't be timeless because that takes away their historical perspective. I'm pretty sure kids know that Snow White is an old movie (they make no mistake to say it's an old classic from the 30's... it wouldn't have retained that groundbreaking status if you didn't know), and Aladdin is a realtively newer one, just by the looks themselves. There ARE different levels of dated, but Aladdin sticks out the most, due to Robin William's at the moment references (much as I love them).

We know which Disney movie I hate, let's not dwell on it. The ones I like the best are ones that don't deal with Princesses (Jungle Book, Pinocchio, Lion King, Emperor's New Groove, Wreck it Ralph even).

Exactly right! A truly timeless piece would be rather bland. Even Shakespeare shaped historical events to fit his modern perspective. Classic works are only revered as timeless because we grew up already knowing them. They came along before we were born set the standard for us. And that standard is arbitrary.

I love classic Disney, but I don't assign the timeless quality to any of it. I will admit that the many anachronistic moments of Aladdin date the piece, but that's another can of worms. Also, we forget that classic projects like Fantasia and Pinocchio were considered box office bombs in their day! It's strange to think of them that way, but it's true.

Commercial art, and that's what the Disney Company has always represented, juggles modern tastes and profits with artistic vision. Those who claim Snow White somehow did less of that than The Little Mermaid aren't just short-sighted. They're flat-out wrong. In fact, there are actually more parallels with those pieces than most others in that they were both high-stakes gambles that ended up paying off and lifted the company to new heights.

Our personal perceptions and tastes are something entirely different and those are to be respected.

 

[Muppet fan 123]

I love classic Disney, but I don't assign the timeless quality to any of it. I will admit that the many anachronistic moments of Aladdin date the piece, but that's another can of worms. Also, we forget that classic projects like Fantasia and Pinocchio were considered box office bombs in their day! It's strange to think of them that way, but it's true.

Wasn't Citizen Kane also a major bomb at the box office? I believe it even got booed at the Oscars that year.
Arrested Development was terrible in ratings, but became a major cult classic after it's cancellation.

Who knows? Maybe in twenty years we'll be complaining that Disney isn't making the same kind of movies they make today.

 

[CensoredAlso]

The need of female protagonists to be rescued by a man and the fact that most of Disney's villains in that era were women with power are also dated concepts.

Well like I said, there's a lot to admire about those older protagonists (and even the villains) and it's a shame that society has forgotten that.

A fan saying Disney's best work was during Walt's time or the Muppets during Jim's time is not pessimism. It's people having a preference. As you say, it's all valid. It's just that fans who like older things always seem to have to explain themselves to people more.

As far Pinnochio not doing well, I believe I read that was because of the war, not because people didn't like the movie.

 

[jvcarroll]

Wasn't Citizen Kane also a major bomb at the box office? I believe it even got booed at the Oscars that year.
Arrested Development was terrible in ratings, but became a major cult classic after it's cancellation.

Who knows? Maybe in twenty years we'll be complaining that Disney isn't making the same kind of movies they make today.

Exactly!

Well like I said, there's a lot to admire about those older protagonists (and even the villains) and it's a shame that society has forgotten that.

As far Pinocchio not doing well, I believe I read that was because of the war, not because people didn't like the movie.

I agree it's all valid, just don't always agree it's all relative. I just agree to disagree.

I see the old and the new films for all of their aspects. I'm not cherrypicking just the ones I like and ignoring the rest. Except for Ursula, classic Disney villains do have the upper-hand. I find them to be much more compelling.

Companies are always going to blame some external force for a film's failure at the box office. The fact is that, like Fantasia and several other Disney classics, Pinocchio was a disappointment.

And that's the point. Making blanket statements about things being better in this period or that period are moot. It comes down to personal taste and not some idea of timelessness.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Except for Ursula, classic Disney villains do have the upper-hand. I find them to be much more compelling.

Cool, I agree.

Making blanket statements about things being better in this period or that period are moot. It comes down to personal taste and not some idea of timelessness.

Yes and no, for me. I respect personal taste, but I do think there are periods in art that are better than others, period. No artist can always be good for their entire career, that just does not happen. I know that's a bit harsh and I don't expect everyone to agree with me, lol. The only way I can describe it is, George Harrison was always convinced that whatever spirit made the Beatles what they were eventually traveled on to Monty Python. Every artist does get their day to shine but it does not, cannot last forever. That "spirit" does eventually move on. That is what makes it special. It's a compliment if anything. But again, I don't expect everyone to agree.

I think why people get frustrated is, when fans of any franchise get excited about current or future projects, it's considered normal and understandable. When fans get excited about past projects, they're told they're just clinging to the past and they have to constantly explain themselves. If we're talking about personal preference, then people who do prefer past projects shouldn't seem any more odd than people who prefer current ones.

 

[jvcarroll]

Cool, I agree.



Yes and no, for me. I respect personal taste, but I do think there are periods in art that are better than others, period. No artist can always be good for their entire career, that just does not happen. I know that's a bit harsh and I don't expect everyone to agree with me, lol. The only way I can describe it is, George Harrison was always convinced that whatever spirit made the Beatles what they were eventually traveled on to Monty Python. Every artist does get their day to shine but it does not, cannot last forever. That "spirit" does eventually move on. That is what makes it special. It's a compliment if anything. But again, I don't expect everyone to agree.

I disagree with making decisions for other people and their tastes. It's subjective.

For many Muppet fans, The Muppets Take Manhattan is the gold standard. For others, it's Muppet Christmas Carol. For me, it's the Muppet Show and the Muppet Movie. I have my opinion when the Muppets hit their best stride. I think it ended after The Great Muppet Caper. There were some quality projects after that, like Muppet Family Christmas, but much of the bloom was off the rose by then. And that's my opinion. It's not a fact. Not at all. You see, I grew up when the show was still current and on the air. The Muppet Movie was my first theatrical film experience. Others have different experiences. For many, The Muppets Take Manhattan was their first experience and it makes sense to me why that is their gold standard.

It's all subjective. It's all opinion. I won't budge on that and make decisions for others. Not even those who like Kermit's Swamp Years.