Interesting Gulf War News

[MuppetsRule]

To clarify i meant that in the cause of liberating the Iraqi people and also ridding people internationally of Iraq's development of WMD and other weapons that whether we sold them things or supported them twenty years ago or not, at least we are doing something NOW to sort it out and stop the Iraqi regime for doing bad stuff. That was my point, not that we just close our eyes and forget about the past, but it is just that, the past - can't be changed. The future of these people and ourselves is what's most important.

If I might add a bit to what Luke said:

Imagine if the U.S. had chosen not to take any action in WWII. After all, Hitler's rise to power was largely due to the tough economic conditions created after WWI and the world community's punishment to Germany? So should the world have ignored Hitler? After all, it was because conditions we created some twenty years earlier. Should the United States stayed out of the war? After all, Hitler wasn't a direct threat to our shores. Why should we get involved in Germany, what if Japan gets involved?

Can you imagine the press asking General Patton 10 days after the Invasion of Normandy, "Why aren't you in Paris yet? Did you underestimate German resistance?" "The war isn't going well."

Seems pretty ridiculous doesn't it? The point is, you can't take events out of their historical context in which they happened. The reason we assisted Hussein was because Iran and Iraq were at war? Remember something about the Iranian hostage crisis? Times change, alliances change. You move on and if you have the opportunity to correct events of the past you act upon it.

 

[frogboy4]

We all have to be mindful of each other’s feelings when we post. Angry messages aren't the spirit of Muppet Central or the Muppets. No one has been or will be banned for their views. New forum guidelines will be posted shortly. We have been working on them for a while now. Hope it will help make this an even better place for everyone to enjoy.

 

[tomahawk]

The thing about WWII is that the U.S. knew what was going on with Hitler. We even sold the Nazis ammunition. So again the reason we were involved in WWII was because Japan actually attacked us not because we knew Hitler was evil.

So let me see, the U.S. right now is in a supposed tough economic situation right? O.k. so Governor Bush is pushing for war and calling all of God's power to aid him in this fight against evil. Hmmmmmmmmmm sounds familar.
The reason we assisted Saddam is because we didn't want those pesky communists to get a hold of our oil. Just like in Afganistan when we funded Bin Laden against Russia.

And last but not least, Iraq could never, ever be a threat to us. And I'm not talking about terrorist attacks because as we all know that can come from anywhere, I'm talking direct threat. I mean just ask Timothy Mc Veigh about terrorist attacks coming from anywhere.
FEAR KEEPS YOU IN YOUR PLACE
FEAR KEEPS YOU FROM ASKING QUESTIONS
FEAR MAKES YOU IRRELEVANT

 

[DirthNader]

Originally posted by frogboy4
We all have to be mindful of each other’s feelings when we post. Angry messages aren't the spirit of Muppet Central or the Muppets. No one has been or will be banned for their views. New forum guidelines will be posted shortly. We have been working on them for a while now. Hope it will help make this an even better place for everyone to enjoy.

I have a question about these guidlines. Will they restrict subject matter or the way in which we choose to converse? I'm all for civility, but not at the expence of a right to an oppinion.

I mean no disrespect, just a sincere concern.

Thank you

 

[tomahawk]

And for those Micheal Moore fans out there, listen up. His next project is called "Fahrenheit 911, the point at which freedom burns." Its about how Bush and his cronies are using sept. 11 and the 3000 people killed to push their conservative agenda. AMEN BROTHERS AND SISTERS.

 

[Luke]

Originally posted by tomahawk
FEAR KEEPS YOU IN YOUR PLACE
FEAR KEEPS YOU FROM ASKING QUESTIONS
FEAR MAKES YOU IRRELEVANT

Yup, and Saddam Hussein has ruled those poor Iraqi people for years using fear tactics, personally i'm glad we are putting a stop to that.

 

[wolfy]

This was sent to me from my husband, a retired Army National Guardsman who is seriously thinking of rejoining, just so he can help out our country in this time of need.

He wrote: I know this is quite long, but I thought that the information regarding the 'stars' near the end might be interesting. I, too, found it quite interesting, especially in the light of the various converstations concerning the "great" Michael Moore...(Please remember, this was not written by either me or my husband, but we do agree.)

Who's Smarter? by Cindy Osborne

The Hollywood group is at it again.

Holding anti-war rallies, screaming about the Bush Administration, running ads in major newspapers, defaming the President and his Cabinet every chance they get, to anyone and everyone who will listen. They publicly defile them and call them names like "stupid," "morons" and "idiots." Jessica Lange went so far as to tell a crowd in Spain that she hates President Bush, and is embarrassed to be an American.

So just how ignorant are these people who are running the country? Let's look at the biographies of these "stupid," "ignorant," "moronic" leaders, and then at the celebrities who are castigating them:

President George W. Bush:
*Received a Bachelors Degree from Yale University and an MBA from Harvard Business School.
*He served as an F-102 pilot for the Texas Air National Guard.
*He began his career in the oil and gas business in Midland in 1975 and worked in the energy industry until 1986.
*He was elected Governor on November 8, 1994, with 53.5 percent of the vote.
*In a historic re-election victory, he became the first Texas Governor to be elected to consecutive four-year terms on November 3, 1998 winning 68.6 percent of the vote.
*In 1998 Governor Bush won 49 percent of the Hispanic vote, 27
percent of the African-American vote, 27 percent of Democrats and 65 percent of women.
*He won more Texas counties, 240 of 254, than any modern Republican other than Richard Nixon in 1972, and is the first Republican gubernatorial candidate to win the heavily Hispanic and Democratic border counties of El Paso, Cameron and Hidalgo. (Someone began circulating a false story about his I.Q. being lower than any other President. If you believed it, you might
want to go to URBANLEGENDS.COM and see the truth.)

Vice President Dick Cheney:
*Earned a B.A. in 1965 and a M.A. in 1966, both in political science.
*Two years later, he won an American Political Science Association congressional fellowship.
*One of Vice President Cheney's primary duties is to share with individuals, members of Congress and foreign leaders, President Bush's vision to strengthen our economy, secure our homeland and win the War on Terrorism.
*In his official role as President of the Senate, Vice President Cheney regularly goes to Capital Hill to meet with Senators and members of the House of Representatives to work on the
Administration's legislative goals.
*In his travels as Vice President, he has seen first hand the great demands the war on terrorism is placing on the men and women of our military, and he is proud of the tremendous job they are doing for the United States of America.

Secretary of State Colin Powell:
*Educated in the New York City public schools, graduating from the City College of New York (CCNY), where he earned a Bachelor's Degree in geology.
*He also participated in ROTC at CCNY and received a commission as an Army second lieutenant upon graduation in June 1958.
*His further academic achievements include a Master of Business
Administration Degree from George Washington University. *Secretary Powell is the recipient of numerous U.S. and foreign military awards and decorations.
*Secretary Powell's civilian awards include two Presidential Medals of Freedom, the President's Citizens Medal, the Congressional Gold Medal, the Secretary of State Distinguished Service Medal, and the Secretary of Energy Distinguished Service Medal.
*Several schools and other institutions have been named in his honor and he holds honorary degrees from universities and colleges across the country. (Note: He retired as Four Star General in the United States Army)

Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld:
*Attended Princeton University on Scholarship (AB, 1954) and served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as a Naval aviator. *Congressional Assistant to Rep. Robert Griffin (R-MI), 1957-59.
*U.S. Representative, Illinois, 1962-69.
*Assistant to the President, Director of the Office of Economic
Opportunity, Director of the Cost of Living Council, 1969-74.
*U.S. Ambassador to NATO, 1973-74.
*Head of Presidential Transition Team, 1974.
*Assistant to the President, Director of White House Office of Operations, White House Chief of Staff, 1974-77.
*Secretary of Defense, 1975-77.

Secretary of Homeland Security Tom Ridge:
*Raised in a working class family in veterans' public housing in Erie, PA.
*He earned a scholarship to Harvard, graduating with honors in 1967.
*After his first year at The Dickinson School of Law, he was drafted into the U.S. Army, where he served as an infantry staff sergeant in Vietnam, earning the Bronze Star for Valor.
*After returning to Pennsylvania, he earned his Law Degree and was in private practice before becoming Assistant District Attorney in Erie County.
*He was elected to Congress in 1982.
*He was the first enlisted Vietnam combat veteran elected to the U.S. House, and was overwhelmingly re-elected six times.

National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice:
*Earned her Bachelor's Degree in Political Science, Cum Laude and Phi Beta Kappa, from the University of Denver in 1974, her Master's from the University of Notre Dame in 1975 and her Ph.D. from the Graduate School of International Studies at the University of Denver in 1981. (Note: Rice enrolled at the University of Denver at the age of 15, graduating at 19 with a Bachelor's Degree in Political Science {Cum Laude}. She earned a Master's Degree at the University of Notre Dame, and a Doctorate from the University of Denver's Graduate School of International Studies. Both of her advanced degrees are
also in Political Science.)
*She is a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and has been awarded Honorary Doctorates from Morehouse College in 1991, the University of Alabama in 1994, and the University of Notre Dame in 1995.
*At Stanford, she has been a member of the Center for International Security and Arms Control, a Senior Fellow of the Institute for International Studies, and a Fellow (by courtesy) of the Hoover Institution.
*Her books include Germany Unified and Europe Transformed (1995) with Philip Zelikow, The Gorbachev Era (1986) with Alexander Dallin, and Uncertain Allegiance: The Soviet Union and the Czechoslovak Army (1984). She also has written numerous
articles on Soviet and East European foreign and defense policy, and has addressed audiences in settings ranging from the U.S.
Ambassador's Residence in Moscow, to the Commonwealth Club, to the 1992 and 2000 Republican National Conventions.
*From 1989 through March 1991, the period of German reunification and the final days of the Soviet Union, she served in the Bush Administration as Director, and then Senior Director, of Soviet and East European Affairs in the National Security Council, and a Special Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs.
*In 1986, while an international affairs fellow of the Council on Foreign Relations, she served as Special Assistant to the Director of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
*In 1997, she served on the Federal Advisory Committee on Gender -- Integrated Training in the Military.
*She was a member of the boards of directors for the Chevron Corporation, the Charles Schwab Corporation, the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation, the University of Notre Dame, the International Advisory Council of J.P. Morgan and the San Francisco Symphony Board of Governors.
*She was a Founding Board member of the Center for a New Generation, an educational support fund for schools in East Palo Alto and East Menlo Park, California and was Vice President of
the Boys and Girls Club of the Peninsula.
*In addition, her past board service has encompassed such organizations as Transamerica Corporation, Hewlett Packard, the Carnegie Corporation, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, The Rand Corporation, the National Council for Soviet and East European Studies, the Mid-Peninsula Urban Coalition and KQED, public broadcasting for San Francisco.
*Born November 14, 1954 in Birmingham, Alabama, she resides in Washington, D.C.

So who are these celebrities? What is their education? What is their experience in affairs of State or in National Security?
While I will defend to the death their right to express their opinions, I think that if they are going to call into question the intelligence of our leaders, we should also have all the facts on their educations and background:

Barbra Streisand: Completed high school. Career: Singing and acting

Cher: Dropped out of school in 9th grade. Career: Singing and acting

Martin Sheen: Flunked exam to enter University of Dayton. Career: Acting

Jessica Lange: Dropped out college mid-freshman year. Career: Acting

Alec Baldwin: Dropped out of George Washington U. after scandal. Career: Acting

Julia Roberts: Completed high school. Career: Acting

Sean Penn: Completed High school. Career: Acting

Susan Sarandon: Degree in Drama from Catholic University of America in Washington, D.C. Career: Acting

Ed Asner: Completed High school. Career: Acting

George Clooney: Dropped out of University of Kentucky. Career:
Acting

Michael Moore: Dropped out first year University of Michigan. Career: Movie Director

Sarah Jessica Parker: Completed High School. Career: Acting

Jennifer Anniston: Completed High School. Career: Acting

Mike Farrell: Completed High school. Career: Acting

 

[FellowWLover]

Wolfy,

I never really thought of it that way, but.... wow.

 

[frogboy4]

Originally posted by DirthNader
I have a question about these guidlines. Will they restrict subject matter or the way in which we choose to converse? I'm all for civility, but not at the expence of a right to an oppinion.

I mean no disrespect, just a sincere concern.

Thank you

The guidelines are merely about mutual respect used in expressing these opinions, not necessarily the substance of them. We have many different members and mutual respect is a must. In order for the forum to be successful, we must not allow harassment or mean-spirited banter of any member through Muppet Central.

I wouldn't worry too much. It takes a lot to cross the line. We are a passionate group, but when that passion turns to anger there's a problem. Warnings are usually issued and we really try to work it out. There are no surprises. Thanks for asking that question. I'm sure others have been thinking that too.

Personal views are fine, personal attacks are not. The guidelines are coming soon and all further questions will be answered at that time.

 

[wolfy]

Janeane Garofelo: Dropped out of College. Career: Stand up
comedienne

Larry Hagman: Attended Bard College for one year. Career: Acting

While comparing the education and experience of these two groups, we should also remember that President Bush and his cabinet are briefed daily, even hourly, on the War on Terror and threats to our security. They are privy to information gathered around the world concerning the Middle East, the threats to America, the intentions of terrorists and terrorist-supporting governments. They are in constant communication with the CIA, the FBI, Interpol, NATO, The United Nations, our own military, and that of our allies around the world.

We cannot simply believe that we have full knowledge of the
threats because we watch CNN!! We cannot believe that we
are in any way as informed as our leaders.

These celebrities have no intelligence-gathering agents, no fact-finding groups, no insight into the minds of those who would destroy our country. They only have a deep seated hatred for all things Republican.

By nature, and no one knows quite why, the Hollywood elitists detest Conservative views and anything that supports or uplifts
the United States of America.

The silence was deafening from the Left when Bill Clinton bombed a pharmaceutical factory outside of Khartoum, or when he attacked the Bosnian Serbs in 1995 and 1999. He bombed Serbia itself to get Slobodan Milosevic out of Kosovo, and not a single peace rally was held. When our Rangers were ambushed in Somalia and 18 young American lives were lost, not a peep was heard from Hollywood.

Yet now, after our nation has been attacked on its own soil, after 3,000 Americans were killed, by freedom-hating terrorists, while going about their routine lives, they want to hold rallies against the war. Why the change?

Because an honest, God-fearing Republican sits in the White House?

Another irony is that in 1987, when Ronald Reagan was in office, the Hollywood group aligned themselves with disarmament groups like SANE, FREEZE and PEACE ACTION, urging our own government to disarm and freeze the manufacturing of any further
nuclear weapons, in order to promote world peace.

It is curious that now, even after we have heard all the evidence
that Saddam Hussein has chemical, biological and is very close to obtaining nuclear weapons, their is no cry from this group for HIM to disarm. They believe we should leave him alone in his quest
for these weapons of mass destruction, even though it is certain that these deadly weapons will eventually be used against us in our own cities.

So why the hype out of Hollywood? Could these celebrities believe that since they draw such astronomical salaries, they are entitled to also determine the course of our Nation? That they can make viable decisions concerning war and peace?

Did Michael Moore have the backing of the Nation when he recently thanked France, on our behalf, for being a "good enough friend to tell us we were wrong?" I know for certain he was not speaking for me.

Does Sean Penn fancy himself a Diplomat, in going to Iraq when we are just weeks away from war? Does he believe that his high school diploma gives him the knowledge (and the right) to go to a country that is controlled by a maniacal dictator, and speak on behalf of the American people? Or is it the fact that he pulls in more money per year than the average American worker will see in a lifetime? Does his bank account give him clout?

The ultimate irony is that many of these celebrities have made a
shambles of their own lives, with drug abuse, alcoholism, numerous marriages and divorces, scrapes with the law, publicized temper tantrums, etc. How dare they pretend to know what is best for an entire nation!

What is even more bizarre is how many people in this country will listen and accept their views, simply because they liked them in a certain movie, or have fond memories of an old television sitcom!

It is time for us, as citizens of the United States, to educate ourselves about the world around us.

If future generations are going to enjoy the freedoms that our forefathers bequeathed us, if they are ever to know peace in their own country and their world, to live without fear of terrorism striking in their own cities, we must assure that this nation remains strong. We must make certain that those who would destroy us are made aware of the severe consequences that will befall them.

Yes, it is a wonderful dream to sit down with dictators and terrorists and join hands, singing "Cumbaya" and talking of world peace. But it is not real.

We did not stop Adolf Hitler from taking over the entire continent of Europe by simply talking to him. We sent our best and brightest, with the strength and determination that this country is known for, and defeated the Nazi regime.

President John F. Kennedy did not stop the Soviet ships from unloading their nuclear missiles in Cuba in 1962 with mere words. He stopped them with action, and threat of immediate war if the ships did not turn around.

We did not end the Cold War with conferences. It ended with the
strong belief of President Ronald Reagan... PEACE through STRENGTH.