Interesting Gulf War News

[MuppetsRule]

Skeeter Muppet:

that doesn't make him anti-US. You remind me of those people over here who are calling those people who are against the war "unpatriotic,"

I do not oppose Sidcrowe's right to voice his opinion. If you have followed this debate I have said on earlier posts that war is a serious issue and one that does need to be debated. The decision to go to war is not a decision to be taken lightly. I have found some of the links he provided in his posts to be enlightening and others obviously partisan. Although I fully support the decision to go to war with Iraq, I have attended peace rallies to gain another perspective. I agree with you, the opposition of the war in Iraq does not make one 'unpatriotic'. To the contrary. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom to voice our dissent, etc. are the very foundation of our country. But if you have followed Sidcrowe's posts they are peppered with many anti-U.S. sentiments:

America can't control it's booze and drugs, it's murder rate

You can't drive down your streets or turn on your TV without seeing an ad for beer

Bush had trouble with booze, his daughters are found drunk

Can't you find a leader who isn't in a bottle or getting favours from an intern


to cite a few of his remarks. The fact that President Bush is a recovering alcoholic or that his college-age daughters party is irrelevent to whether the decision to invade Iraq was right or wrong. The drug use or murder rate in America is irrelevent to this debate. They contribute nothing other than bashing President Bush and/or the U.S.

 

[MuppetsRule]

Sidcrowe

Here's what I said :

"Yeah, probably a few of those soldiers may have been executed. It's wrong, but then again, where are the bombs falling on people who live on your street? If Iraqis were running around in your backyard, killing your friends, I'll bet a few of you would execute them...not all, but some.

If someone killed my mother, I'd execute him if I had the chance. Screw the Geneva convention. I'd bet you may do it, too."

Please don't take it upon yourself to tell me how I would act in certain situations. That is one bet you would lose.

There is a clear distinction between fighting back for your country against an invading force and executing POWs! To take the attitude 'Yeah, it's wrong but then again I don't blame them.' is absurd. If you don't think that absolving them of blame isn't asserting justification for their actions then you and I are reading from different dictionaries.

 

[sidcrowe]

Luke: Wow–long post!

Gotta be short or I'll be here for hours.

Rumsfeld. I don't know if you watched the CBC show on satellite, but there he was...shaking the hand of a man whom he knew had just killed and tortured his own people. Government or private business, I don't give a sh * t , the man is a hypocrite of the highest order.

Jim Henson should be brought into it because it's a Henson fansite. He did go to Russia with Denver, another leftist, during the cold war while a Republican held office in the USA. Also, Sam the Eagle is the only right winger in the Henson lot, he was writtten as a stupid, reactionary prude who hated weirdos, knew nothing about art, and wanted to shut the Muppet theatre down. You think that was an accident? That was Henson's take on the Right.

How quickly folks adopt the buzzwords set out bt the Pentagon.

The "suicide terrorists" are patriots and heroes, giving their lives to kill invaders in their country, in a war they know they can't win.

If they can get close enough to the invaders, they are free from all Iraqi military influence. At that point they could lay down and say "watch out, there's a bomb in the car," but they don't. In that moment, they choose to give their lives for Iraq.

That says it all. These people don't want or need to be invaded.

Rebuttals: 1 (returned Luke's "sh * t" comment)

 

[sidcrowe]

Muppetsrule: It's wrong to steal bread, but I would not blame a starving man.

 

[sidcrowe]

Muppetsrule: First mine...

"Bush had trouble with booze, his daughters are found drunk

Can't you find a leader who isn't in a bottle or getting favours from an intern"

And now yours...

"to cite a few of his remarks. The fact that President Bush is a recovering alcoholic or that his college-age daughters party is irrelevent to whether the decision to invade Iraq was right or wrong. The drug use or murder rate in America is irrelevent to this debate. They contribute nothing other than bashing President Bush and/or the U.S."

I guess we're just different people. David Letterman is obviously on the left (in my opinion, anyway, he was hard on Bush during the elections), but he lambasted Clinton after what he did. People would say "lighten up," and he would say stuff along the lines of..."But he's our president," and "But it was the White House."

I'm paraphrasing, of course, but that was what I got from being a regular Letterman viewer. He let Clinton have it.

Even the Simpsons (mostly fair, but they're really hard on Ned Flanders) called Clinton a lousy president.

Do I like Janeane Garofalo? Yeah, but I don't like Clinton. He's a schmuck. I liked H. Ross Perot, though. Jimmy Carter, too.

I don't think it's irrelevent. The president should be the best of the best. Your last two leaders? A dry drunk and a cheater. You have a high murder rate. You drink...plenty. Sure, the streets of Iraq are covered in pictures of Saddam, but in America, they are covered in pictures of Budweiser.

Don't go marching in around the world, thinking you deserve to because you're perfect and they are bad.

They are not all bad, and you are not perfect.

What gives you the right to invade? 9/11? Sorry, Osama took credit for that. You don't have the right to mow down a country because of two towers and a wrecked wall of the Pentagon.

Insults: 0
Rebuttals: 3

 

[FellowWLover]

Originally posted by sidcrowe

What gives you the right to invade? 9/11? Sorry, Osama took credit for that. You don't have the right to mow down a country because of two towers and a wrecked wall of the Pentagon.

There was a little more to it than that, like the thousands and thousands of people who died that day, but of course, if I bring them up, you will just start spouting more rhetoric about the innocent Iraquis who will die in the war. The war isn't all about 9/11, then again, you are happy to over-simplify when it suits your cause.

 

[sidcrowe]

FellowWlover: No, I would bring up the thousands of innocents killed by the USA in the decades preceding 9/11.

http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com/library/wonderful/index.php

Rebuttals: 1

 

[Luke]

Originally posted by sidcrowe
That says it all. These people don't want or need to be invaded.

From what i'm seeing just about everybody who's managed to leave the country is screaming out for us to liberate Iraq and talking about the attrocities that go on there and everybody still inside Iraq is either completely religiously brainwashed or scared for their lives and their families lives. It's quite right that one of these suicide terrorists could decide to lay down and warn the Allies of whats about to happen, but i'd bargain that if it didn't happen his family would be shot and his wife raped behind him. If not that he's doing it for religious reasons but maybe the people who have brainwashed him with their interpretation of the religion have misinterpreted it wrongly for their own cause. In any case, i'd hardly call these guys or the other soldiers who've done similar things 'heroes' - how about all the ones wearing civilian clothes and waving white flags who then bring out guns or trap the allied soldiers when they get close to accept the surrender ? I'd call them cowards because they couldn't stand and fight - doing that kind of thing is going to affect how the real Iraqi civillians are treated and could put their fellow country people at risk, it's also against all the international laws of war and conventions that i'd remind you Iraq signed up for.

Anyway, i said all that stuff in the other post about the kind of things going on in Iraq and you don't seem to have disputed that or that there is a problem, or Saddams regime is pretty bad so you seem like one of those guys who don't disagree with all the obvious signs that these people need help yet you seem to shrug them off and just restate your oblivious calls for 'no war' - so Sid, just what the heck do you propose we do to resolve the situation in Iraq ? How would you bring about a change in Iraq so that the ordinary people have better lives and the leader cannot harm his own people or in the future, the rest of the world ?

Unless of course you think we should just sit back home and do nothing letting thousands of people die, go hungry and their leader slowly build up weapons of mass destruction and sponsor terrorist groups to come and bomb us. I do get the feeling you think this is just not our problem and we have no right to be in there in Iraq, but just because you aren't directly associated with something doesn't mean as a human being you wouldn't want to help someone - you talk about the stealing bread/starving man thing - well if your house was on fire and you couldn't get out would you not expect other people who you might not know to come and help put out the fire ? We have tons of Iraqi's who've managed to make it to the UK/USA telling us about the situation their family and friends are in back in Iraq, i think as human beings we need to go help them. I can't blame them for not calling for help themselves because we know they are living in fear with execution armys, phone tapping and stories of terrible things happening to people which pretty much means a gun is being held to their head.

Jim Henson, again, has nothing to do with this. The excuse that this is a Muppet fansite does not mean we automatically bring him into every "general discussion" topic - someone might post that they went out and bought new shoes but we wouldn't then go and analyse Jim's taste in footwear. Your take on Jim's political persuasions may be right or wrong but it is ultimately only your take - i just think it's rather lame and tacky to use a dead person who isn't around to defend themselves in order to put your point across or show how you feel in a topic that has already got quite heated and could cause offence.

 

[MuppetsRule]

Sidcrowe:

Do you really read your defense of the hatred you spew forth? There quite laughable actually.

David Letterman is obviously on the left (in my opinion, anyway, he was hard on Bush during the elections)

And that makes him on the left how? It's his job! He's a comedian and late night host. If anything, his comments about Clinton would put him on the right. He was defending the Office of the President.

Even the Simpsons (mostly fair, but they're really hard on Ned Flanders) called Clinton a lousy president.

You're basing part of your defense on The Simpsons? Wow! While a very hilarous cartoon I don't know if I'd base part of my argument on it.

The president should be the best of the best. Your last two leaders? A dry drunk and a cheater.

How does the fact that President Bush overcame his addiction to alcohol years ago affect his ability to be president? Perhaps you should talk to somebody that has overcome an addiction and gone on to lead a very prosperous and successful life. There are many. Anyone that has overcome an addiction to alcohol or drugs should be lauded for their achievement.

You drink...plenty. Sure, the streets of Iraq are covered in pictures of Saddam, but in America, they are covered in pictures of Budweiser.

Oh really? I'll have to keep an eye out for those signs. I seem to miss them as I travel about the city. In addition, I can take any number of routes to work everyday (a distance of about 6 miles) and not see a single sign advertising Budweiser, Molson, or any other alcoholic beverage.

 

[MuppetsRule]

Luke:

Your last two posts could not have been more right on.