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Well on the other hand (and this is what gets me a lot of grief here, heh) but the way I look at it is this is a franchise that had four hugely successful TV series and at least six successful films. Struggling to find a reinvention doesn't mean the franchise is no longer around in the public...

If the show keeps going the way it is, the Muppets arguably won't be around anyway.

I wouldn't be at all surprised.

You're right. Remember in the 60 Minutes episode when Richard Hunt said the Muppets' jokes wouldn't work with human beings? Well the reverse is also true. The jokes that work with humans don't necessarily work with the Muppets. That doesn't mean the Muppets aren't adult or sophisticated. It just...

It's not senseless nor is it bickering. DrTooth and I have these debates all the time, lol. I think some fans are (rightly) perturbed at being accused, more than once, of not being real fans just because they didn't like this one particular show. Some perspective is required here.

First it's nostalgic fans, now it's casual fans? Seriously, it's just fans. Talk about elitism... Just because the majority of Muppet fans aren't "fanboys/girls" doesn't mean they don't count and doesn't mean they don't have influence. The problem is you think you're the only one defending...

That's the carrot you keep hoping they're dangling, but I don't see any evidence of that from Disney. And frankly, you shouldn't let a corporation hold your fandom and your passion hostage like that. They're just called fans actually. No need to preface it with "nostalgic" as though they're...

Realism...heh...hold that thought... Good point, must never refer to past successes. We wouldn't want the audience to notice that this show barely measures up by comparison. Ridiculous, of course it could work! Just have the EM take some illegal LSD and start hallucinating talking...

We know that. We just don't think this show is doing it all that well.

To be fair, since the show brought it up, I don't think it's off topic to discuss the legalization issue. Obviously we're not all going to agree, but we've done that with other topical issues.

Well I won't comment on your personal experience of course. From my point of view, growing up with poor role models (not my parents) and even poorer peers is what gave me issues, lol. If I had to guess, I think this show is going for, at best, a college crowd. I just don't see this humor...

Well understand, I wasn't raised with my TV viewing censored. I don't believe in that. I think people give Television more blame than it deserves as far as influence. But that's not really what I'm talking about. I'm saying as an adult, I feel like this humor is too young for me.

I'm honestly not sure who they think they're making this show for. I'm not sure if they know. I grew up in the 80s, but the last time I was shocked at someone saying "Oh God" or drawing naughty pictures in a card was a very long time ago, lol. And, um, well how can I put this? I always got the...

We've been freaking the beak out because it isn't. I know you always say this and I agree, I'm just not sure how that's supposed to make it better.

If you understand the characters, you'd know that "idiotic" isn't the most Muppety word ever.

Give them time. What they have done is give the distinct impression they can't tell the difference. ;) Not within the context of that kind of Kermit and Piggy scene.

It's normal for two adults to simply drink some wine with dinner while talking all romantic. But this new show would probably have Piggy falling off her chair drunk while Kermit makes some rude joke that's supposedly funny. It's a question of class.

Muppet Baby Gonzo was pretty devoted to Camilla, his stuffed animal toy. Muppet Show Gonzo was always more of a playboy. Like in the 30th anniversary special, he's sitting with "his girls" and mistakes the wrong chicken for Camilla and says, "Ugh, I can never tell, all chickens look alike!"...

Yup, the episode Cliff's Nightmare

To be fair, that is a direction actors are often given, and I'm sure that includes Muppet performers as well. There's a balance. :)