Speculation: Potential Sequel for "The Muppets"

[CensoredAlso]

But it felt like the movie was made by people who haven't been a fan of post Jim Henson era Muppets.

Well to be fair, as much as some fans like that era, it was not the Muppets most successful time. The post-era era had 20 years to win the public over and overall it didn't. In fact it turned off a lot of people.

 

[D'Snowth]

Well to be fair, as much as some fans like that era, it was not the Muppets most successful time. The post-era era had 20 years to win the public over and overall it didn't. In fact it turned off a lot of people.

And it's mostly IAVMMCM's fault, but oh well.

Getting back to Frank, I actually didn't notice until somebody pointed it out, but it's true, there really wasn't any dynamics to Kermit and Fozzie when Steve took over Kermit, yet Frank still performed Fozzie: they virtually have no scenes together in MCC (well to be fair, Bob Cratchett and Fezziwig didn't interact in the original story), their time together in MTI was limited at best, and even in MFS their scenes together were because of group shots and such.

 

[Drtooth]

1. I'm in "I'll believe it when I see it" mode (absolutely no offense meant to theprawncracker) but I'm enthused to hear even preliminary reports that Bobin and Stoller are back on board - and, as mentioned earlier, these reports are popping up before The Muppets even arrives on DVD and Blu-Ray, which should give this already-successful "comeback movie" another huge boost.

Like I said, most movies that get sequels now get the announcement after the first week at the Box Office. If it's a success, a sequel is no doubt. Half... ehhh... most of the time, these are, like I said, Hangover 2... basically a rehash of the same movie because they were too short sighted to realize that said sequel has to have a PLOT that differs enough from the first to make the film worth seeing. Hopefully, they know that in this case. Jason's not on board, but he did say that it was "more Muppety" if they just do a different follow up movie.
2. The movie can work with or without Segel, on-screen (the return of Walter doesn't necessitate the return of Gary or Mary) or off (I'd be heartbroken if he wasn't on board at all but I trust Bobin and Stoller to get this right, although I wouldn't mind seeing Lewis or Oz in the mix - and might a certain Oscar-winning Mr. McKenzie come back to write some more great songs???).

5. I'll echo DrTooth's comment that there may just have been too many Muppets crammed into the most recent film. Don't get me wrong, I loved the great "all hands on deck" TMS vibe in the second half of the movie and it's sometimes fun to play "Who Do You Recognize?" but not if it distracts from the flow of the film or denies other characters their chance to shine. Count me in on the "More Screen Time for Gonzo, Rizzo and Pepe" camp (and I'd throw Rowlf, Robin and the Electric Mayhem in there for good measure - maybe even Johnny and Sal too).

Well to be fair, as much as some fans like that era, it was not the Muppets most successful time. The post-era era had 20 years to win the public over and overall it didn't. In fact it turned off a lot of people.

Here's the thing about Muppets Tonight and all the other post-Henson projects... Jim died, Richard died, Frank Oz had a foot out the door. Only Kermit was fully recast then, and even then it seemed Steve rather performed Rizzo than Kermit for some time. If you don't believe me, check out the commentary of Muppets From Space. Kermit gets "lost in Star Wars episode 1" for most of the movie, and Rizzo takes his place. Of course, Kermit was a very personal character to Jim, while Rizzo was one Steve created. But Steve has proven that he can be Kermit, and we've seen a LOT more of him since VMX than any time from MCC-MFS.

So what can you do if you don't have Rowlf, Dr. Teeth, Scooter, Janice, as well as a host of others that have yet to be recast? You have to make new roles to fill in those spaces. That was where Pepe, Johnny and Sal, Van Neuter, Bobo and a whole mess of less fortune ones came in. Now, the cream of those characters survived MT (no Poodlepants, Spamella, or Andy and Randy... except for that one Cat Cora thing)... but now you figure, Clifford was Kevin Clash, who's way too busy with Elmo and his other massive list of SW duties... so he's out. Brian is with Henson, so Sal and VanNeuter aren't there either. So basically we have a Sal-less Johnny (much like the toy line), Pepe, and Bobo... all Bill's characters.... and now Bill gets the recast for Rowlf and Dr. Teeth as well. So, the irony is, we're actually losing the new characters unless they get recast as well.

On that subject, we have recasts of older characters we once lost. Look at the TED conference... David brought Scooter back. We're seeing more of characters like Link Hogthrob (who basically got more screen time in The Muppets than any of the previous 6 movies combined), Rowlf, the entire Electric Mayhem... not to mention the massive Eric recasting of all of Frank Oz's roles. We finally have all the characters, or at least most of them, back where they belong. Without those new characters created in MT or recasts, we'd basically have just Gonzo and Rizzo.

Still, Pepe has proven to be one of the group since MFS... arguably the only really great thing about the post Henson era. And even then, they managed to squeeze him in, while splashing him all over the promotional materials. Rizzo was barely a cameo at the end, though, like I said, I don't see where he'd fit in, and we've got a LOT of Kermit in this movie, so Steve was clearly busy.

 

[D'Snowth]

I'm in "I'll believe it when I see it" mode

Good luck with that.

The last time anyone was in that mode around here *cough*me*cough*, the rest of the MC community was that "OMG! QUIT BEING SUCH A NEGATIVE PESSIMIST YOU A-HOLE!!! IT BRINGS NOTHING BUT UN-NECESSARY NEGATIVITY TO THE ENTIRE MC COMMUNITY, WE DON'T NEED PEOPLE LIKE YOU MESSING THINGS UP!!! WAHHHHHH!!!"

 

[Borples]

Getting back to Frank, I actually didn't notice until somebody pointed it out, but it's true, there really wasn't any dynamics to Kermit and Fozzie when Steve took over Kermit, yet Frank still performed Fozzie: they virtually have no scenes together in MCC (well to be fair, Bob Cratchett and Fezziwig didn't interact in the original story), their time together in MTI was limited at best, and even in MFS their scenes together were because of group shots and such.

It's true. But like I mentioned, on at least one occasion when they did get together (Muppets on the Muppets), it was great. I mean, that finishing each others' sentences thing was gold. So it seems like their lack of interaction was more a writers' choice than the performers? Maybe they (the writers) thought it would show up the difference in Kermit too much if he was paired with Fozzie? (and even Piggy--look at MFS; they barely interacted at all.) The same reason that Kermit wasn't put in the starring role unless he was playing someone else for those 10 years or so. They were trying to downplay the change? Just speculating.

 

[Beauregard]

My first thought: YES! BRING IT ON! MORE MUPPET GOODNESS ASAP!

My second thoughts: Better not be a direct sequel.

My third thought: Keep the quality high, and everything else will follow.

 

[Beauregard]

I think as long as a new movie with Walter didn't heavily reference the story from TM2011 (what are we calling that one in short form?), it wouldn't necessarily be a sequel. He's just a Muppet now, yaknow?

Especially since "Walter in The Muppets" was a character played by a Muppet named Walter who is a huge Muppet fan...He said so himself, many times. (Sorry to post twice in a row, but I have more to say )

 

[LouisTheOtter]

D'Snowth: Really? I'm sorry to hear that. I ran into that on other forums, but we were always able to work it out and respect each other's opinions. Hopefully that will be the case here. (I always have a certain level of cynicism in this regard, especially when it comes to Muppet projects, since so many have been announced and then yanked - it took me a long time to believe that The Muppets was actually going to happen.)

That being said, I actually liked IAVMMCM (even though the title bugs me since large chunks of it wasn't all that "Merry" - then again, upwards of 75 per cent of It's A Wonderful Life has no wonderfulness whatsoever...)

Drtooth and heralde: At some point, somebody really has to write a book about the past 22 years of Muppet history. My head spins thinking about the variables involved in recasting characters, giving some a rest, introducing others, the pressure of attempting to create quality Muppet material while living up to the astounding legacy of the Henson-Hunt-Oz-Nelson-Juhl years...mind-boggling...

Part of the reason I'm really excited about the prospect of a new movie and more Muppet appearances is that it feels like everything is settling down for the first time in quite awhile. I picked up the re-released A Red and Green Christmas album shortly after seeing The Muppets (twice) and the combined effect of that and the viral videos has me thirsting for more. Whitmire, Jacobsen, Rudman, Vogel, Baretta - and Peter Linz for that matter - not only PLAY these characters, but they GET these characters, individually and as an ensemble cast. It took a long (and occasionally painful) time but the torch has indeed been passed, and the sky's the limit as far as I'm concerned.

In the midst of all this, Dave Goelz is still at it, sounding as great as ever. Astounding.

And while the last two decades of Muppet productions may not have resonated with the public as much as the previous two (let's try to remember that the Muppets had a lot more competition for our attention during that period), this certainly hasn't been a period of wasted time for anyone involved, including the audience. Some of my favourite Muppet moments are from the post-Jim movies, Muppets Tonight, IAVMMCM and the virals, and while I'll always have an affection for the '70s and '80s material, I put my trust in the current Muppet crew to keep me laughing and smiling for years to come.

 

[Beauregard]

As Kermit said, "I believe in you, and you....and you...and you."

I believe in Stoller and Bobin. Everything else is just speculation.

 

[Drtooth]

D'Snowth: Really? I'm sorry to hear that. I ran into that on other forums, but we were always able to work it out and respect each other's opinions. Hopefully that will be the case here. (I always have a certain level of cynicism in this regard, especially when it comes to Muppet projects, since so many have been announced and then yanked - it took me a long time to believe that The Muppets was actually going to happen.)

That being said, I actually liked IAVMMCM (even though the title bugs me since large chunks of it wasn't all that "Merry" - then again, upwards of 75 per cent of It's A Wonderful Life has no wonderfulness whatsoever...)

VMX was a ratings hit, and it got a lot of people who didn't even care the Muppets were still around to watch. That's all I'm going to say.

I do get the negativity of a movie not going to happen because... well... in the long history of the Muppets, there were a LOT of films that went unproduced and just disappeared (and yet, we got MWO). But this stuff went down even before Disney bought them.... in cases even when Jim was around (Muppet High and Cheapest Movie anybody?). Here's what went down with Disney... we had a Muppet reality show parody, a Muppet mockumentary, a Christmas special, an Election Day special, a Halloween special and a movie. We got the movie and the Christmas special, but the other four didn't happen. 4 unrealized projects is basically a Henson press release on a good day. And, let's be honest... the Mocumentary sounds good, but really... does anyone want to see a reality show parody? I can't even sit through Total Drama Island and that's an animated parody. The Election special sounded lousy (what? Are they going to question Fozzie's birth certificate?), a Halloween special sounds solid, but if there's one tiny thing wrong with LTS, is that it needed more gestation time. We would have had a very rushed project with the Halloween story.

Drtooth and heralde: At some point, somebody really has to write a book about the past 22 years of Muppet history. My head spins thinking about the variables involved in recasting characters, giving some a rest, introducing others, the pressure of attempting to create quality Muppet material while living up to the astounding legacy of the Henson-Hunt-Oz-Nelson-Juhl years...mind-boggling...

It all comes down to availability, grasp of the character, and to be able to sound roughly enough like them that it's recognizable to an extent... and that's pretty much in order. Characters bounce around from performer to performer even when they're first created. Elmo's the prime example. Piggy in the first season as well. But that's when you create the character. To take on a role that's very personal to someone else is not an easy task. Sure, you can do an impersonation... anyone can. But can you live and breathe as the character, even between takes? And even if you're perfect, are you going to be able to always perform that character when needed?

It's a tricky process of recasting... that's why some of these guys haven't been seen in 20 years. Sometimes they think they have it, but one of the first two factors comes up, and we lose the character again.