The Bible and Love and Christians

[beaker]

I think that's the truest thing anyone can say at this point.

I think it comes down to this: Just because the US is wrong on some issues, doesn't mean the rest of the world is right.

I mean I really admire the work of Communist playwright Bertolt Brecht and the way he discussed the corruption of war and the oppression of the working class. But on the other hand he often supported a guy like Stalin, heh (though he was also critical at times). There was a lot of denial on the part of Communists back then on what was really going on in Soviet Russia.

So yeah...complex is the word of the day!

I hate communist regimes, because they've all been nothing but fascistic tyranical genocide machines. Pol Pot's Cambodia, Maoist China, North Korea, Che's Cuba, Stalin's Russia...granted, most of these cases were toward their own people and not so much ethnic minorities outside of their state(tho the Russians did kill over a million Afghans 1979-1989)

However, the American Communist party for instance did a lot of good. It was the American Communists in 1932 who brought the world's attention to a group of teen black kids falsely accused of rape against a white woman. A lot of social justice issues too. The Tea Party/right wing in America is so hyper paranoid about the idea of "socialism", that even road projects and city reconstruction efforts is considered "socialism".

But yeah, I've never heard of a communist nation that wasn't evil.

 

[beaker]

I'm going to take SOOOOOOOO much heat for this, but I think I finally got it figured out.

Every group, ethnic, religious, whatever HATES each other because they all think they out suffer each other. Jews were misplaced and hated everywhere they went, Blacks were driven here to do the work of pathetically lazy and cheap people and treated horribly for it, gays look like they just came out of no where, but they've been treated like crap for eons too and still are...

We get it. EVERYONE suffered. And why? Money, power, land grabs... same crap. it happened in the past, things sting... sometimes it's better to just move on, but people just like to hold "Something terrible happened to us in the past, and we weren't actually there" over everyone's heads.

I dream of a world where people say, "Yeah, unspeakable crap happened to my ancestors, not so much now." and just deal with it. Learn to get along with everyone and just deal with something they had no control over nor were able to experience. This whole "Your struggle isn't the same as my struggle" garbage is just that... garbage. All struggles are struggles. Everyone wants to be accepted. No clean hands in history, all that rot.

That said, I HATE how masculinity has to be the ideal of complete thugishness. True manliness is confidence in your sexuality. That's where part of Homopobia comes from, and clearly what Tracey Morgan was raised to believe. That's why I like the whole idea of Bromance, Brolationships, stuff like that. A very close comfort with friends. It drops the whole crappy male ideal that people have to constantly punch each other to show affection. That's why I hate all those bad cliched Honeymooners ripoff shows like According to Jim. Jeez... I swear, ATJ is the most annoyingly ubermasculine/borderline homophobic show I've ever seen. The character who has interests outside of sports is always effeminant (even if they're straight) and considered the loser of the bunch. King of Queens barely got away with that for me, but only because of Patton Oswalt and Jerry Stiller. THEY should have had a spinoff.

Why would you catch heat? I think a lot of times you project the notion what you say is going to be taken the wrong way.

But actually, you just articulated something that sums it up perfectly. The idea of claims to oppression. I believe some of the black community dislike of the gay community may be due to religious beliefs, the idea of white priveledge(and the perception of gays=all rich), masculinity identity...but it may also be that.
That notion of who can claim oppression. If the Native Americans had not been virtually wiped out/bread out of lineage, and blacks had come over in the way Indians/Arabs/Russians come over today, you might see them in the role that black America is. My friend who is black said how different it is visiting Europe, as the blacks there come from a whole different journey and situation of sorts.
As you noted, blacks had to work hard for often not as much. I think WW2 changed a lot of that. You saw a mass migration from the south of blacks to port cities, where whites and blacks got similar pay and could eek out a somewhat lower middle class life. Unfortunately, even in California you had segregation of cities and neighborhoods, and racist cops randomly beating up and arresting black kids hanging out in the 50's and 60's. This served as the impetus later on for street gangs and the rise of the black population in prison. I often feel MLK would be a bit saddened to know of the modern cyclical nature of the post civil rights era, and how so many African Americans got caught in that quagmire. When the CIA introduced crack cocaine via Contras supplying black street gangs in the early to mid 1980's as a shortsided way to makeup financial backing for covert missions(as exposed by Senator Kerry in 1988 and later senate investigations) it really did a number on black inner cities much like AIDS did to the gay community.

I personally don't believe in the idea of reparations, because noone is alive that can be blamed for the treatment of Native Americans, Blacks, Japanese, Chinese, Irish, whomever. I think part of the system is still there, but things have changed. Now, if a podunk general store in Tallahooskanowhere Alabama refuses to serve a black guy, the whole world knows it. 50 years ago, a black guy could be found in a ditch and there wouldn't be much of an investigation.

What's really sad is the number one oppressors of black communities are black youth gangs who have put a stranglehold on the lifeblood of any given city. Again the cyclical nature of not believing there is any other option, and being raised in that environment. Decades of being pushed around, spat on, etc and wanting to feel like you actually own something and have a strong identity may have lead to some feeling hyper protective(hence how street gangs are based on neighborhoods and streets) A hyper defensiveness making it so one has a tough exterior or hostility and mistrust toward everyone.

On many college campuses, Asians sit with Asians, Blacks with Blacks, etc...though I think cultural relatability comes into play. My friend I mentioned is a total nerd into punk and sci fi, but he gets made fun of by his black friends for acting "white". I myself have been told by other asians I don't act asian at all, whatever that means.

Personally, the thing I deeply hate in white, black, hispanic, arab, asian, russian and other cultures in my area is the macho tough guy alpha male act. It just leads to so much violence, abuse, using women(and women who enable that), wreckless fast and the furious driving. Both the rich and poor kids all seem to really fall into that idiotic mindset. And it's completely across virtually all races, classes and culture here in California. I think it's perfectly ok, heck preferred if males are raised to be in touch with a feminine side. Most guys in this culture are taught that crying, being in touch with feelings, etc is bad. This leads to many relationships being sucky, especially for the woman(Many females are also taught to think or act in a certain way)

I know Im making a lot of generalizations, but my unified theme here is I wish more people would smash their own paradigm, smash the control mechanisms and rise up to their full potential. We live in a world where men do most of the evil on the planet and oppression, and too many women enable it as the working and poor just take it.
I want to see people realize their full dynamic human potential...to cut away toxic relationships, stop buying into materialism, start thinking about what their eating and especially the stuck way they may approach life. If religion provides clarity or answers for some, than I am for that as well.

 

[beaker]

The whole male thing is... well, I've said it before.

Commercials are made by some of the most devious people in the world, especially when it comes to adults. Now, seeing all those commercials my entire life got me to analyzing...

Stuff marketed to women plays off their fears of not finding someone or their fears of gaining weight. Commercials marketed to men play off their fears of getting into a fight with their wives/girlfriends OR fears about their sexuality.

I remember a glaring example was subliminally (yet not so subtly) questioning the masculinity of someone driving an environmentally friendly car (I remember some unfunny "gag" at the end where he's holding a poodle or something... there was definitely a connection to poodles somewhere) and making him want a big fat oil inhaling truck because it had horse power and all this other pointless buzzwords. it was so... so insulting.

That's basically how scared men are about their sexuality. Me? I never really need to question mine. i know what I like. I don't want to say it. It's not illegal or immoral (bestiality and pedophilia is the only thing I truly find wrong, ticks me off when people compare gays to that), just... I'm not comfortable saying it here and I feel like a weirdo. Personally, I just can't bring myself to judging anyone on what they ...uh... like... (except feet. I don't get that at all. But maybe it's because everyone in my family has that toe nail disorder) because I feel weird enough and feel that would be hypocritical.

The "if you're not a thin woman you're worthless" mentality that's forced down female's throats from a young age is exactly the sort of control paradigm people need to get out of. At the same time, Americans need to stop being so lazy and think about their health. Because when you eat bad stuff, you feel sucky. Especially if you're able bodied and make no effort to exercise at all in any given week. Now, sadly Venus painting and Marilyn Monroe would be considered "fat".

You've told me what your preference is, and it's a sick world that would find anything wrong with that. Again, you pretty much sum up what's wrong with body consciousness and image with women and the madison avenue marketing. So many girls have body dismorphic disorder in some form; Ive rarely known any females who didnt feel hyper sensitive/obsessed with weight.

Bigger guys, as I have been a lot of my life, don't have as hard a time...sure, girls are programmed to go after the big armed toned guy, but so many big/fat actors are top A list leading men(sure, mostly comedy or action comedy) but you will never see a bigger woman in a lead role for the most part.

You mentioned King of Queens...I actually love that show, own every season on dvd.
I just find Kevin James funny, but it does poke fun/instill a lot of masculinity tropes.
I LOVE Spence, besides the fact Patton Oswalt is a visionary comedian up there with the late Bill Hicks. He and Jerry Stiller totally should have had a spinoff, as the episodes where it was just them two were brilliant.

 

[CensoredAlso]

What's really sad is the number one oppressors of black communities are black youth gangs who have put a stranglehold on the lifeblood of any given city. Again the cyclical nature of not believing there is any other option, and being raised in that environment.

It was the same for the early European immigrants who formed gangs or joined organized crime. They saw no other options because of poverty. Things improved for them because their children eventually gained more opportunities for education and employment over the years and many were able to escape that cycle. But there's less opportunity for that nowadays for people in the same position, because jobs have been moved overseas, etc.

 

[Drtooth]

Personally, the thing I deeply hate in white, black, hispanic, arab, asian, russian and other cultures in my area is the macho tough guy alpha male act. It just leads to so much violence, abuse, using women(and women who enable that), wreckless fast and the furious driving. Both the rich and poor kids all seem to really fall into that idiotic mindset. And it's completely across virtually all races, classes and culture here in California. I think it's perfectly ok, heck preferred if males are raised to be in touch with a feminine side. Most guys in this culture are taught that crying, being in touch with feelings, etc is bad. This leads to many relationships being sucky, especially for the woman(Many females are also taught to think or act in a certain way)

I remember seeing something on PBS (not the whole way through, and I was kinda watching it only to wait for something else on television) about how people join gangs because it's their only shot at manliness/male influences. Nothing makes me more disgusted than that. That's why I hate corporate rap... stuff written by or funded by old white guys that praises drug use, gun violence, and violence against women. I never understood how smacking the heck out someone you supposedly love is macho. Domestic violence is never EVER appropriate, to assert masculinity or a drunken rampage, it's all just nasty bullying by thuggish individuals. I don't see why some women go for that kind of guy, but they do... then they act shocked when something terrible happens to them.

Again, all this forced Machismo crap is the other non-religious side of homophobia. I swear, so many people are afraid of secretly being gay even when they aren't, and take it out on them with the excuse of vampirisim. Like if they get bitten by one they turn into a gay.

You've told me what your preference is, and it's a sick world that would find anything wrong with that. Again, you pretty much sum up what's wrong with body consciousness and image with women and the madison avenue marketing. So many girls have body dismorphic disorder in some form; Ive rarely known any females who didnt feel hyper sensitive/obsessed with weight.

Errr.... well, I have the internet like everyone else... and you find things... so... I can't say I feel all together about it. There shouldn't be anything wrong with it, but... Let's just say there's stuff on Deviant art. Some pretty... uh... stuff I keep finding in other people's favorites. Stuff I actually DON'T object to. If it's drawings, no one gets hurt, right?

Anyway, it's all about gender roles and stereotypes and what we're supposed to be. You see LOTS of large guys on TV, but any time there's a girl that's kind of big either, they play the fat friend or they're the token fat person that doesn't do anything. Then somehow they wind up losing weight so they can further their careers and you NEVER see them again anyway. I still swear that Kirsty Alley was worth more when she was making bad reality shows whining about how fat she was than when she actually did lose weight. It's not just the weight that was the problem. It was the age too.

 

[ilovemusic]

Can I tell you guys something?
This seemed the good thread, at least about religion.
I'm very afraid to tell this (if I say this on street eher, in Holland, I suddenly can be beat or worse, much anti-semitics), but I think I had to tell it sometime, because I'm living in a little closet with all my secrets now.
Okay. Here it is. I'm Jewish.
... Please don't hate me.

 

[RedPiggy]

We're supposed to be muppety an' stuff, ilovemusic. You could be a three-headed purple dragon that spits magic fuzzy ooze that glows in the dark and still be loved.

 

[beaker]

NY state one vote away from legalizing gay marriage:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43411793/ns/us_news-life/

I personally do not feel any church should be mandated to perform any ceremony or marriage they don't want, if that's what some people hesitant about bills like prop 8 worried about.

It was the same for the early European immigrants who formed gangs or joined organized crime. They saw no other options because of poverty. Things improved for them because their children eventually gained more opportunities for education and employment over the years and many were able to escape that cycle. But there's less opportunity for that nowadays for people in the same position, because jobs have been moved overseas, etc.

Yep. They even made a great movie out it(Gangs of New York) I do worry about the future of the economy, because if more jobs dry up and the economy goes bellyup, we're going to see quite a swatch of every part of America facing hardship and feeling desperate.

 

[beaker]

Can I tell you guys something?
This seemed the good thread, at least about religion.
I'm very afraid to tell this (if I say this on street eher, in Holland, I suddenly can be beat or worse, much anti-semitics), but I think I had to tell it sometime, because I'm living in a little closet with all my secrets now.
Okay. Here it is. I'm Jewish.
... Please don't hate me.

We love and celebrate all people here, so welcome aboard. Although, that is terrible that hatred like that exists in the Netherlands like that.

By the way, is that why you chose Zoot as your avatar? I think it was revealed Zoot is Jewish in the telefilm Letters to Santa.

 

[frogboy4]

NY state one vote away from legalizing gay marriage:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43411793/ns/us_news-life/

I personally do not feel any church should be mandated to perform any ceremony or marriage they don't want, if that's what some people hesitant about bills like prop 8 worried about.

Yep. They even made a great movie out it(Gangs of New York) I do worry about the future of the economy, because if more jobs dry up and the economy goes bellyup, we're going to see quite a swatch of every part of America facing hardship and feeling desperate.

That's the scare tactic that Anti-Gay activists use to drum-up support. A Catholic church can refuse to perform a Mormon ceremony and so forth so that policy wouldn't change under the advancement of gay marriage rights.

The issue comes back to the bigger picture. There are many people in the religious community who disapprove of gays so much that they'll do or say anything to keep us from view. They don't want anyone to see us happy and thriving because that would cancel out any practical legitimacy of their disapproval. It would merely come down to a case of Biblical beliefs instead of the fantasy some paint of our civil rights somehow ruining the world.

The one thing that might be affected is adoption. I'm a child of adoption and one from Catholic services. Equal rights for gay people could cause issues for adoption agencies that discriminate if they take federal funds. I've never known the Vatican to hurt for money. And their decades-long cover-ups of numerous (however statistically rare) atrocities concerning the abuse of kids by their leadership should forfeit their right to take a pious, moral stance about child placement for a while. To be clear, I'm not mindlessly going after the Catholic Church with pitchforks for that particular conspiracy, but I'm not absolving them either! I don't have to. I'm neither a Christian nor a Catholic (anymore).

The recent Tracy Jordan controversy brought some things to light. He didn't only threaten to stab a fey or gay child. He also continued to say that being gay was a choice people make (making no distinction from a person's being and their behavior), that the media was trying to influence people into making that "choice" and that President Obama should take action against gay people. Jordan apologized for the first part, but the rest of it. Nonetheless he's now working with GLAAD to create some supportive ads against the bullying of gay people. It looks like Fey, Baldwin and Jordan's publicist clued him in that "30 Rock" is the best thing that will ever happen to him and the show won't happen without the support of gays or liberal-minded people that oppose the stabbing of children.

Any forum member knows that freedom of speech also means freedom of opposition speech for those who disagree. Rights, even for comedians, come with responsibility. Sure, people like Bill Maher are fired over things they say and it doesn't seem fair, but technically he has no right to say whatever he wants without consequences if a company is paying him to state them. However, it does suck. Heck, he made out better on HBO anyway. More money, less time, great deal for Bill.

Anyway, thought that was funny. Jordan goes from bigot to PSA spokesman in under a week! sigh