Bert and Ernie Gay Rumor: Settled

[frogboy4]

I think the only times SS has ever tried to address any religion, they basically did it as a holiday thing, mentioning Mr. Hooper celebrates Hanukkah, and even moreso in Elmo's World Happy Holidays, where they actually discuss the backgrounds of Hanukkah and Christmas. And frankly, I don't think they need to go any deeper that that. Sure, Shalom Sesame talked about the Jewish faith, but that was for older kids anyway. As for dealing with gay people, I don't even think that's the right place to address it.

Postcards from Buster tried to address it and met with angry mobs who whined about teaching things too soon for their kids to understand (and mostly, those groups are the ones that want to teach their kids their own backwards, hateful views)... even though it was never addressed that the couple in question was. it is a sensitive issue, and it should be discussed with parents... but then again, what do you do when the parent's "Values" system means "pass on your hate and fear to your kids?"

It all goes back to what dw said about this. I wouldn't want them talking about ANY relationships that aren't between 2 adults, and barely then. SS may have gotten away with boyfriend and girlfriend smooching (a lot between Maria and David... then Luis) in the old days, but even if you manage to mention kissing someone's gonna get their 1800's style undergarments in a bunch.

I like that you brought up the term "values" because it's been co-opted for so long by the religious conservative lobby. I agree. That's what keeps getting the hate passed around.

There's no one set of values and the idea that if one doesn't subscribe to a particular belief that they have inadequate values is a terrible thing to say about folks. People value different things and that's okay. I suppose so much of society is based on the "if I'm right then you are wrong" mentality instead of tolerance and the idea that some people are worth more than others.

 

[Drtooth]

I like that you brought up the term "values" because it's been co-opted for so long by the religious conservative lobby. I agree. That's what keeps getting the hate passed around.

My set of values is Don't go around cracking people's heads open and feasting on the sweet goo inside (modified Simpsons quote, in case you're wondering about me..."Homer the Vigilante" to be precise). If SS was trying to promote something violent and wrong, then I'd step up and complain. I don't even like the ideal that Cookie Monster was promoting obesity especially since Cookie isn't the greatest shape of any of the Muppets... Grover on the other hand is an athletic bean pole... does he promote anorexia? People will twist and turn whatever's written into a kid's show to further some agenda, whether it be the good intentioned road paving to Hades types (I.e. people who want to do good, but manage to do it the wrong way) or the fear and control types.

Ernie and Bert are open to interpretation if they need to be. But I don't think a single kid under the age of 9 (when they're easily corrupted by school mates and their dirty, Eric Cartman style jokes... man, is that show accurate) wants to look any deeper than 2 guys who just so happen to live together.

As for the shirt, I say... GOOD! SW clearly has a sense of humor, since the joke has been around for ages, and referenced everywhere from King of Queens to American Dad to Mad Magazine to Mad TV... I highly recommend tracking down the Mad article "When Sesame Street Caves in to The Radical Right," which features a scene of Jesse Helms bribing Cookie Monster to rat Ernie and Bert out. Bert remarks, "I'm not gay! I'm not even slightly happy!"

 

[beaker]

That's my opinion there and I know some will find that entirely too restrictive and I'm sorry- but there it is. I understand some think about this a lot differently and think that homosexuality should be discussed with children on this level and at this age. As a Christian, I just know that The Bible says it's a sin.

I tend to agree, in that sexuality shown amongst the young Sesame puppets of any kind seems a bit out of place.

Then again, I literally thought big bird was a girl until a few years ago. So I tend to not even know what's up from down with those guys.

 

[beaker]

The thing about the Roosevelt Franklin thing, which really bugs me, is that it wasn't so much the fact he was considered a racist character (no one ever mentions the album only character A. B. Cito depicted as a small guy in a giant sombrero standing next to a cactus)... so much as it is the fact that his school was rowdy. Now, I wonder if they really said it was racist to show an inner city school like that (even in outer cities they are), but they clearly thought it was a bad example. And thus, they scrapped everything. Which is beyond me, since they could have easily dumped the school all together and kept Roosevelt on.

As for Lefty... drug dealer... maybe, but also the seller of stolen goods. And purchasing stolen goods can get both the seller AND the purchaser in big trouble.

Good thing that AB Cito was an obscure liner note doodle and not a full blown character!

My only issue with Roosevelt, was that he never felt quite like a Muppet...and to me always looked like, well a sock puppet. I thought that was distracting, as for some reason I felt he doesnt capture the illusion. But man, he sure was popular back then! I was thrilled to find a new Sesame sticker set with him on it

As far as Lefty, heh...yeah not a very innocent character, dealing with mob bosses and hawking illegal wares

If a particular religion shapes your opinion it's fine to note it, but recitation of specific Bible verses is oppressive and out of place unless there's a particular religion thread somewhere where it can go and be avoided by people like me who believe that snakes only talk on the Muppet Show.

Maybe people with such beliefs can keep the mainstream threads clean by posing a link where the discussion can go down the scripture path in another thread? Like Dolly Parton, the Muppets have been known to be particularly popular with gays and Christians while a lot of Jewish folk wrote the material. I think there’s a way to better get along here.

Speaking of religion and the Muppets, I think EVERYONE should see the newer international Sesame productions from Israel, Egypt, Palestine, Ireland, Bangledesh, Kosovo and all over the world.

I think Western people, including myself, get a bit too geo-centric even within our hobbies and that its good to see what life and culture is like elsewhere. The international Sesame productions in the Muslim world, Latin America, Africa, Europe, Asia, Israel, etc are a good starting point.

 

[RedPiggy]

It should almost be mandatory to slip in some international SST clips here and there. It won't kill the kids to learn about other people and what they do with their day.

 

[GonzoLeaper]

Speaking of religion and the Muppets, I think EVERYONE should see the newer international Sesame productions from Israel, Egypt, Palestine, Ireland, Bangledesh, Kosovo and all over the world.

I think Western people, including myself, get a bit too geo-centric even within our hobbies and that its good to see what life and culture is like elsewhere. The international Sesame productions in the Muslim world, Latin America, Africa, Europe, Asia, Israel, etc are a good starting point.

Definitely agree with you there. It's good to have at least some exposure to the rest of the world and have some knowledge of other countries and cultures besides your own. I'm certainly interested in that. It would be great if Sesame Street showed some clips from their international versions (though to be fair, they have Global Grover and other attempts to teach kids about the globe.)

I think the only times SS has ever tried to address any religion, they basically did it as a holiday thing, mentioning Mr. Hooper celebrates Hanukkah, and even moreso in Elmo's World Happy Holidays, where they actually discuss the backgrounds of Hanukkah and Christmas. And frankly, I don't think they need to go any deeper that that. Sure, Shalom Sesame talked about the Jewish faith, but that was for older kids anyway. As for dealing with gay people, I don't even think that's the right place to address it.

Yes, Sesame Street has addressed religion to some degree, mainly in regard to holidays like Christmas and Hannukah and Kwanzaa in the "Elmo's World: Happy Holidays" special. And I did appreciate that they went into the origins of each one to some degree. Could've done more, but it was good for what it was. I would've preferred that they called Jesus the Savior rather than just a good teacher, but they did call Him The King- so that's good. I was just pleasantly surprised that they even tried to talk about the birth of Christ at all- and it was really cool to have Prairie Dawn directing a Nativity paegant! That was perfect.

I’m sorry, but the "Jesusing", as I refer to it, is *extremely* off-putting to me and most folk who don't subscribe to your beliefs. It does nothing to shed a good light on that particular message. The same goes for the tossing around of the “we’re all sinners” cliché with passive-aggressive judgment built-in. In essence, the people who don’t like that religion are reminded why. That can’t be intended. Lightly mentioning JC and the big C are fine in the right moderate context, but you bet your bippy that there would be an increase of tension if someone kept quoting the quran in mainstream threads. I'd go to an appropriate forum or thread for extensive Bible chat and scripture reading.

If a particular religion shapes your opinion it's fine to note it, but recitation of specific Bible verses is oppressive and out of place unless there's a particular religion thread somewhere where it can go and be avoided by people like me who believe that snakes only talk on the Muppet Show.

Thanks for clearly stating your position. I appreciate hearing different points of view. (And for the record, I am familiar with some of the surahs of the Koran- a lot of which is derived somewhat from The Bible to begin with, though definitely changed around a good bit. I am firm in what I believe and where I stand in Christ, but I'm also open to listening to other religious points of view- I think it's interesting.) So your main concern here is that you don't seem to particularly like Christianity and don't like to be reminded of it through any Bible verses or Scriptural references in a forum that's not specifically created solely for the purpose of discussing Christianity and The Bible. Am I correct in that understanding then?
Regarding the "we're all sinners" statement- I suppose it can become something of a cliche, but it's not any less true because of that. The point is not to bring judgment and condemnation on others who don't believe in Christ when that's said. The point is to say that all of us have done things outside of our own personal values system that we know are wrong. In essence, we all mess up and none of us are better than anyone else in that regard.
It's the same as if a parent were to catch their child stealing money from their purse or wallet. The parent will never love the child any less but they can't condone stealing because it's wrong. I don't like the stigmas of fear and hate that seem to come with various groups (Christian or conservative/Republican/whatever- because those terms are not mutually exclusive- sometimes they're both, but not always.)
Jesus is not about hate or condemnation- He's about love 'cause He is love. I hope that His followers can do a better job of showing that than some of the poor examples that come up far too often. And I'm sorry if I haven't done a good job of that myself in any of my posts here.
I think we've both made it clear where we stand on certain issues and that's okay. As long as we can do that respectfully without denigrating the other person, I think we'll be operating in true Muppety spirit.

 

[RedPiggy]

I think part of the problem is that for one, declaring "we are all sinners" sounds like a statement of fact and a hope that we can enjoy the divine despite that. However, to some, and I feel I have to agree with the sentiment, the declaration has an implicit "I'm better than you" sentiment, intended or not. After all, if we are all sinners, bringing it up is like bringing up we all need oxygen. It's a useless statement if it's true for everyone.

 

[frogboy4]

I think part of the problem is that for one, declaring "we are all sinners" sounds like a statement of fact and a hope that we can enjoy the divine despite that. However, to some, and I feel I have to agree with the sentiment, the declaration has an implicit "I'm better than you" sentiment, intended or not. After all, if we are all sinners, bringing it up is like bringing up we all need oxygen. It's a useless statement if it's true for everyone.

That's exactly it. The "we're all sinners" is still a religious belief system derived from the Bible and not a point of fact. Just because it puts everybody in the same boat, doesn't make it any less of a judgment.

The correct phrasing is something like, "My Christian faith says that we are all sinners" or something like that. But, see, it's still the enforcement of one's chosen faith, so that whole sin assignation should just be left alone unless asked. There’s much presumption by the most vocal representatives of the Christian community that seems to taint the whole lot and their intended message gets lost.

I completely reject the idea that being gay is a sin in the first place. However, I believe that my barking obscenities at the car that cut me off at the crosswalk this morning would register somewhere as sinful…but man…people drive like maniacs!

 

[Drtooth]

That makes Elmo Wonder... what's a sin and what isn't? Oh Drawer....

Is a birthday cake a sin? Sure, if it's sinfully chocolatey...

 

[RedPiggy]

My sin is Doritos, LOL.