Bert and Ernie Gay Rumor: Settled

[beaker]

Oh, yeah. I've never seen this Boober and Mokey discussion, but I would have a problem with their being paired up in a romantic way. Especially since they are definitely just kids.

They are? There's very little about the Fraggle gang that seems like they are mentally children. They have all the sensibilities of young adults. the only reason Id be against a Gobo/Red and Boober/Mokey pairing is that'd leave Wembley out!(my fave Fraggle)

 

[beaker]

First off, it may well be an unauthorized shirt. I can certainly believe that. If it's not, or even it is, I still believe that shirt is as gay as you want it to be. Sometimes a rose is just a rose.
It can be just two best friends and a rainbow, symbolizing the sunny days that are enjoyed on Sesame Street.

Um, it was definitely official(I checked the tag on the shirt) and it absolutely was marketed toward gay youth(it was sold amongst a number of gay youth culture merchandise. I'm just saying...

I like how Sesame Street explained their educational purposes for Ernie and Bert- they're a great example of how people can get along despite their differences. This is a good picture of what tolerance should look like really- being able to accept that people believe different things and in fact, are different in their own ways

Couldnt agree more!

 

[dwmckim]

They are? There's very little about the Fraggle gang that seems like they are mentally children. They have all the sensibilities of young adults. the only reason Id be against a Gobo/Red and Boober/Mokey pairing is that'd leave Wembley out!(my fave Fraggle)

Don't worry about Wembley - he probably had his fill after the Love Potion #9 incident. Even if not, he probably couldn't make up his mind who he'd want to commit to.

 

[beaker]

I agree that the Muppets mean many things to many people. Why is it so scary to you that the characters *could* have gay roots behind their design? The Muppets have always been made up of a lot of people from various walks of life. It's been noted that even Oz has made off-the-cuff hints that the characters could be life partners while SW's official statement contradicts that. Who cares? People see in Muppets what they want to see. That is their design and function. They are what you want them to be.

I think Sesame Workshop should maybe introduce a gay couple(male or female) as well as someone of Middle Eastern/Muslim background. Hoo boy, sure that'd have parents and politicians steamed...but I think it would better reflect normal city people in 2010.

I think the idea of a toddler show with sexually recognized characters bothers people perhaps. I doubt the Scooter thing would bug most people.

 

[dwmckim]

I think Sesame Workshop should maybe introduce a gay couple(male or female) as well as someone of Middle Eastern/Muslim background. Hoo boy, sure that'd have parents and politicians steamed...but I think it would better reflect normal city people in 2010.

Not quite as extreme but i think that is actually what SW's done with the casting of Leela (who i totally love as an addition to the cast BTW - between her and Chris, they've got awesome new human cast members!)

 

[Drtooth]

As a side note, I dont get why there was such a controversy over Roosevelt Franklin, yet not over Lefty who is pretty much suppose to be a spoof of an inner city drug dealer.

The thing about the Roosevelt Franklin thing, which really bugs me, is that it wasn't so much the fact he was considered a racist character (no one ever mentions the album only character A. B. Cito depicted as a small guy in a giant sombrero standing next to a cactus)... so much as it is the fact that his school was rowdy. Now, I wonder if they really said it was racist to show an inner city school like that (even in outer cities they are), but they clearly thought it was a bad example. And thus, they scrapped everything. Which is beyond me, since they could have easily dumped the school all together and kept Roosevelt on.

As for Lefty... drug dealer... maybe, but also the seller of stolen goods. And purchasing stolen goods can get both the seller AND the purchaser in big trouble.

 

[GonzoLeaper]

It has been stated on this thread that the tee-shirt is official merchandise. It seems pretty gay to me and I've seen similar official types of cheeky designs in San Francisco stores. There's a definite product strategy from SW.

I agree that the Muppets mean many things to many people. Why is it so scary to you that the characters *could* have gay roots behind their design? The Muppets have always been made up of a lot of people from various walks of life. It's been noted that even Oz has made off-the-cuff hints that the characters could be life partners while SW's official statement contradicts that. Who cares? People see in Muppets what they want to see. That is their design and function. They are what you want them to be.

I like the lesson of respect and tolerance from the Muppets and in that spirit I will ask you to please post your Bible talk in the appropriate section. There are plenty such threads at Muppet Central, but this really isn't the place. This very thing has been discussed many, many times before. If I hadn't already made the choice that that particular religion is not for me I would definitely find it off-putting from these types of posts. Most Christians I know are nice folk who don't feel the need for constant scripture recitation. If you're trying to indoctrinate people into your religion this might not be the best way. It's great to share your religious point of view, even here, but when you pull out the "good book" it becomes something else entirely. Something oppressive and judgmental rather than something shared. Thanks.

It's not scary to me that the Muppets may have had gay roots. The Muppets are what you want them to be- which is what I meant about that shirt. It doesn't have to be gay necessarily, but it's obviously taken to represent that to some. And I can understand that there is a market for gay people and some definitely embrace Ernie and Bert as gay and that's their perception and they're allowed that.
Just as others will perceive Ernie and Bert as merely heterosexual roommates and they're allowed that too.
However, I do have to say that I don't think Sesame Street or any other children's show needs to be exploring sexuality with children and homosexuality is one topic best left for parents to talk to kids about when they're older. That's my opinion there and I know some will find that entirely too restrictive and I'm sorry- but there it is. I understand some think about this a lot differently and think that homosexuality should be discussed with children on this level and at this age. As a Christian, I just know that The Bible says it's a sin. Again, I'm not saying this just to condemn someone for their beliefs, but rather to explain my own stance. Besides, Jesus didn't come to condem the world- He came to save it. (I could tell you that this is found in John 3:17, but I'm not sure if that would again be extrapolating beyond the range of what's necessary for the point of this post.)
I'm not sure where the appropriate section is for talking about The Bible unless that's to be relegated only to the Off-topic board. However, I wasn't necessarily trying to indoctrinate anyone or just quote a Bible verse at random for no reason- it was the basis for why I believe in tolerance and mutual love and respect- because Jesus commands it chiefly and has modeled it. I do try to stay reading The Bible and thinking about God's Word often, but I also try to keep posts on here relevant and there are times when a Bible verse effectively explains my point of view as related to the topic. If I didn't feel there was a need to state it, I wouldn't have put it in there for no reason.
But I wasn't trying to offput anyone and I am sorry if it came across like that.

 

[frogboy4]

I don't think the Sesame characters need to explore gays or religion on their program due to the target age group. I have to admit distaste for any agenda aside from tolerance being thrown at kids before they can really understand it. There have been nods here and there through their choice of guests and that's good enough for me.

I’m sorry, but the "Jesusing", as I refer to it, is *extremely* off-putting to me and most folk who don't subscribe to your beliefs. It does nothing to shed a good light on that particular message. The same goes for the tossing around of the “we’re all sinners” cliché with passive-aggressive judgment built-in. In essence, the people who don’t like that religion are reminded why. That can’t be intended. Lightly mentioning JC and the big C are fine in the right moderate context, but you bet your bippy that there would be an increase of tension if someone kept quoting the quran in mainstream threads. I'd go to an appropriate forum or thread for extensive Bible chat and scripture reading.

If a particular religion shapes your opinion it's fine to note it, but recitation of specific Bible verses is oppressive and out of place unless there's a particular religion thread somewhere where it can go and be avoided by people like me who believe that snakes only talk on the Muppet Show.

Maybe people with such beliefs can keep the mainstream threads clean by posing a link where the discussion can go down the scripture path in another thread? Like Dolly Parton, the Muppets have been known to be particularly popular with gays and Christians while a lot of Jewish folk wrote the material. I think there’s a way to better get along here.

 

[RedPiggy]

I don't think the Sesame characters need to explore gays or religion on their program due to the target age group.

I can see them having these people but not making it an issue. I mean, I'm not old enough to have seen pre-1977, but did SST go out of its way to do whole episodes on "this person is black, this person is brown", etc? There were just different types of folks living there and we were just supposed to go with it.

When Dinosaurs addressed religion, it was definitely overt, though obviously no actual religions could be named as they technically hadn't been invented yet, LOL.

My favorite religion analogue will always remain the FR episode where different Fraggle factions are generated based on some stupid radio commercials. The message was subtle and would go over the heads of the youngest viewers.

I think that, sometimes, making a big deal out of an issue MAKES it a big deal. I've never been one to engage in ostentatious sign-waving/chanting/whatever. I just form a conclusion and act accordingly. I remember reading a review for Finding Nemo, where Nemo's physical difference was treated as a non-issue (technically, that was true for everyone aside from the father, but whatever ). I think that, regardless of whatever social issues we face today, perhaps the best idea is to just treat it as "whatever" instead of "OMG RECORD THIS AND DESIGN A DISSCUSION GROUP AROUND IT".

 

[Drtooth]

I don't think the Sesame characters need to explore gays or religion on their program due to the target age group. I have to admit distaste for any agenda aside from tolerance being thrown at kids before they can really understand it.

I think the only times SS has ever tried to address any religion, they basically did it as a holiday thing, mentioning Mr. Hooper celebrates Hanukkah, and even moreso in Elmo's World Happy Holidays, where they actually discuss the backgrounds of Hanukkah and Christmas. And frankly, I don't think they need to go any deeper that that. Sure, Shalom Sesame talked about the Jewish faith, but that was for older kids anyway. As for dealing with gay people, I don't even think that's the right place to address it.

Postcards from Buster tried to address it and met with angry mobs who whined about teaching things too soon for their kids to understand (and mostly, those groups are the ones that want to teach their kids their own backwards, hateful views)... even though it was never addressed that the couple in question was. it is a sensitive issue, and it should be discussed with parents... but then again, what do you do when the parent's "Values" system means "pass on your hate and fear to your kids?"

It all goes back to what dw said about this. I wouldn't want them talking about ANY relationships that aren't between 2 adults, and barely then. SS may have gotten away with boyfriend and girlfriend smooching (a lot between Maria and David... then Luis) in the old days, but even if you manage to mention kissing someone's gonna get their 1800's style undergarments in a bunch.