Bert and Ernie Gay Rumor: Settled

[Fozzie Bear]

I completely reject the idea that being gay is a sin in the first place. However, I believe that my barking obscenities at the car that cut me off at the crosswalk this morning would register somewhere as sinful…but man…people drive like maniacs!

WHAT? You moved to Memphis and didn't tell me?

 

[RedPiggy]

They still drive crazy in Memphis? Dang ... I guess some people never change.

 

[frogboy4]

WHAT? You moved to Memphis and didn't tell me?

Maybe I should be checking the license plates!

 

[Fozzie Bear]

If it says SHELBY TENNESSEE then you have found some of these terrible drivers there! Look out! Ha ha. I think we all have a different personality in the car than we have when we get out of it in Memphis.

BTW: Santa Fish is performing live in June at Tiki Con in Ohio.

 

[frogboy4]

If it says SHELBY TENNESSEE then you have found some of these terrible drivers there! Look out! Ha ha. I think we all have a different personality in the car than we have when we get out of it in Memphis.

BTW: Santa Fish is performing live in June at Tiki Con in Ohio.

No froggin' way! Cool! I miss Santa Fish's creepiness. He really needs his own industry of merchandise behind him, but nobody would store it because of the fishy smell!

 

[dwmckim]

That makes Elmo Wonder... what's a sin and what isn't? Oh Drawer....

Is a birthday cake a sin? Sure, if it's sinfully chocolatey...

What if it's a Death by Chocolate Birthday Cake? How many sins are that? Let's count them and find out. One...two...and one curtains set on fire by the candles!

 

[GonzoLeaper]

Originally Posted by RedPiggy
I think part of the problem is that for one, declaring "we are all sinners" sounds like a statement of fact and a hope that we can enjoy the divine despite that. However, to some, and I feel I have to agree with the sentiment, the declaration has an implicit "I'm better than you" sentiment, intended or not. After all, if we are all sinners, bringing it up is like bringing up we all need oxygen. It's a useless statement if it's true for everyone.

That's exactly it. The "we're all sinners" is still a religious belief system derived from the Bible and not a point of fact. Just because it puts everybody in the same boat, doesn't make it any less of a judgment.

The correct phrasing is something like, "My Christian faith says that we are all sinners" or something like that. But, see, it's still the enforcement of one's chosen faith, so that whole sin assignation should just be left alone unless asked. There’s much presumption by the most vocal representatives of the Christian community that seems to taint the whole lot and their intended message gets lost.

I completely reject the idea that being gay is a sin in the first place. However, I believe that my barking obscenities at the car that cut me off at the crosswalk this morning would register somewhere as sinful…but man…people drive like maniacs!

I'm still not sure how stating that I'm on the same level as anyone else spiritually-speaking implies that I'm somehow better than anyone. This is definitely a Biblically-based belief system, but grammatically-speaking, it is an extra unnecessary step to state that this particular belief is from The Bible or any other point of origin. Thus, if I say that we are all sinners and all on the same level spiritually (i.e. we all have done wrong and all need forgiveness from Christ the Savior)- then it is implicit within that statement that I believe it to be fact, otherwise I wouldn't have said it. To say that "Christianity says this..." or "Buddhism says this..." or "Hinduism says this...", etc. puts me speaking in the third person point of view and distances myself from the statement. Whereas if I simply state it as fact, it's a given that I personally believe it to be fact and that I am declaratively stating it to be fact. Even so, it's not me stating it, but rather I am stating what God has said in The Bible, which is of course, what I base my own beliefs on.
(And I really am not trying to be snide there or a grammar-geek or anything...okay- can't really get around the grammar-geek thing- lol).
And while it's true that we have all done bad things (I trust we can all agree on this basic point- that we are only human and none of us are perfect)- and repeatedly stating this universal fact for no apparent reason- well, that is about as pointless as Sesame Street telling kids to "take a breath" in song, when obviously they're going to do it anyway and don't have to make a conscious effort to do so.
But there is a reason for bringing it up because unless people understand their need for forgiveness, they can never change and have a chance to enjoy the Divine, as RedPiggy said.
Just as Statler and Waldorf didn't merely appear to Scrooge to haunt him in "The Muppet Christmas Carol"- they came to make sure he knew that he had done wrong and desperately needed to change immediately if he wanted to avoid their fates. Surely they weren't trying to tell Scrooge that they were better than him in saying that they all had done wrong- because if anything, they were rotting in eternal punishment whereas Scrooge still had a chance to be saved from that. The same principle can be made for Scrooge's nephew Fred when he tells him, "God save you." And if Fred truly felt he was so much better than Scrooge, then he wouldn't have invited him to have Christmas dinner with his wife and family and friends. It takes true love to make such declarations out of concern and compassion for one's spiritual well-being.
Anyway, the point is that if there's inherent condemnation in the "we're all sinners" statement, then that would make sense because there is condemnation from God that applies to every single person. The difference with Christianity is that we as the human race are not left to work in our own efforts to appease God, but rather He sent Christ to take our punishment through His death and Resurrection. That forgiveness is offered to everyone equally no matter what we've done. And at the heart of Christianity is the love of God shared with every person through Christ as manifested by His followers.
And all that said, I am not better than anyone who's ever lived. The Bible actually says to think of others as better than ourselves and I try to do that, though I certainly mess up at that too. I identify with Paul as the chief of sinners. As Sufjan Stevens said in a great song about infamous serial killer John Wayne Gacy, Jr.- "even in my best behavior, I'm really just like him. Look beneath the floorboards for the secrets I have hid."
So it's not about masochism or "holier-than-thou"-ism. It's about trying to truly live for Christ and share His love with others. I hope everything I say on here communicates that well.

 

[RedPiggy]

To say that "Christianity says this..." or "Buddhism says this..." or "Hinduism says this...", etc. puts me speaking in the third person point of view and distances myself from the statement.

And you should, because you got it from one of those sources. It is not an objective fact.

Just as Statler and Waldorf didn't merely appear to Scrooge to haunt him in "The Muppet Christmas Carol"- they came to make sure he knew that he had done wrong and desperately needed to change immediately if he wanted to avoid their fates.

Tell me where in The Christmas Carol "God" saves Scrooge. There's his family griping at him, there's a bunch of ghosts nagging him ... I don't recall "God" being in that story much at all. Of course, it's been awhile since I've watched it .... It appears to me that all it took was some nagging that he wasn't nice and the promise that when he was dead he couldn't take it with him. He didn't need overt religious tsk-tsking.

And if Fred truly felt he was so much better than Scrooge, then he wouldn't have invited him to have Christmas dinner with his wife and family and friends.

Uh, if he thought he was being the better man, he WOULD have invited over the jerk. To be the BETTER man. At any rate, it was Fred's business whether he wanted Scrooge there or not.

It takes true love to make such declarations out of concern and compassion for one's spiritual well-being.

My brother had a drinking problem. Did I threaten him with God? No. Other families warned him of God's dislike of his decisions, but I realized his problem was one of emotional dependency because he thought his life was crap. I never lectured him -- at least, I don't recall lecturing him. He fell asleep at the wheel, got banged up, scared some hard-timers in jail because he looked like he had just taken out fifty guys (LOL) ... and he's been pretty much on the straight and narrow ever since. When we screw up, there are consequences. Whether "God" is behind those consequences is just adding to the fact that if you put your hand on a stove, your hand will burn. No judgement required. There IS a difference between warning someone their hand will get burned if they put it on a hot stove and telling them God will be angry with them. One consequence we know about. The other is our impression of what will happen, as God doesn't REALLY need to "say" much of anything and God usually ends up saying precisely what the human talking wanted Him to say. Convenient.

The difference with Christianity is that we as the human race are not left to work in our own efforts to appease God, but rather He sent Christ to take our punishment through His death and Resurrection.

That's fine if that floats your boat. Not even all Christians agree with you.

I identify with Paul as the chief of sinners.

I'm with you there. Add Peter and we'll be in major agreement.

As Sufjan Stevens said in a great song about infamous serial killer John Wayne Gacy, Jr.- "even in my best behavior, I'm really just like him. Look beneath the floorboards for the secrets I have hid."

You know why I stopped listening to other people tell me what sin is? When they say things like that. I grew up being told wearing pants as a girl was evil, watching Dungeons & Dragons and Smurfs was evil, etc. I'm sorry, but when someone honestly wants to equate wearing pants or eating shrimp with being a sociopathic killer, I just have to sigh and let the dreamers go about their merry way. The fact is, NO ONE is like a serial killer except people who are sociopathic enough to be one. Sociopathic people have inherent mental issues that make them completely without a conscience. It's insulting to equate anything with being a hardcore murderer. Unless you are also a sociopath, you are not like a serial killer. I do not share in your masochistic spiritual needs.

It's about trying to truly live for Christ and share His love with others.

Then live it. Jesus was willing to hang out with those "unclean" folks. Read your book -- most of His popularity was because He healed or hung out with "sinners", etc. Occasionally, they listened to Him talk.

 

[frogboy4]

Leaper-

Even though it’s clearly not your intention, I found everything you just said to be presumptuous and a little obnoxious and most of my non-Christian friends do feel the same way about that perspective. Actually, many of them would counter such a statement by saying something rather unkind, but I won’t.

Time could be spent splitting hairs to defend what you said and how you said it, but what good does that do to someone who’s already on the defensive? That’s really the point. The statement creates irritation in the very people you are attempting to enlighten. Maybe we are “all sinners”, but that’s not for you to say or repeat to someone who didn’t ask to hear about it. It’s best to speak for yourself as a sinner in such an occasion when sharing your faith. Personally I believe humans to be imperfect, but I don’t agree with allocating sin in any way.

To answer your question:
"I'm still not sure how stating that I'm on the same level as anyone else spiritually-speaking implies that I'm somehow better than anyone."

It enforces a concept of sin and spirituality that not everyone shares. I suppose it's hard to see that when you are raised with a point of view or around it a lot. Hope this helps. That is my intention.

I must also admit to noticing the Christ references is so very many of your posts that it paints the picture that all Christians are heavy-handed when I know from experience that they are not.

 

[ISNorden]

Even though a few Christians on this forum want to "share Christ's love" with others, I don't think that Muppet Central is the right place to preach ANY religion, Christian or otherwise--unless someone wants to discuss the theology in Jim Henson's work. I myself am a Norse pagan, but usually don't bring up my faith here because I know it's inappropriate. If I were to "share" the values and beliefs of Asatru here, dozens of people would criticize me for off-topic preaching; and they'd be right to do that.

At the risk of playing moderator here--yes, Christianity does relate to the Bert/Ernie rumors in part, because of Biblical teachings against homosexuality and the resulting complaints against CTW. But please try your best to stay on topic here; there are plenty of other places to discuss religion in a different context.