RED ALERT! "The Muppets" fans need to contact ABC **NOW**!!

[WebMistressGina]

Um ... I don't think that's true. Kids love Sesame Street. I know Sesame Street was the reason why I became a Muppet fan. A bold statement such as "kids don't like Muppets" is crazy. The majority of people will tell you that Muppets are for kids anyway.

And I wouldn't say this is true either. Most kids will watch whatever movie their parents put on for them, I don't think they really care if it's traditionally animated or CGI. CGI films are just the only type of animated movies being released now, so if you wanted to go to the movies with your kids, of course they will only watch Pixar style movies.

That's the problem, TBH.

Parents.

Yes, typically parents will sit a kid down to watch something that they enjoy and depending on the age (under 5 is better), most kids will enjoy whatever you let them watch because, duh, you're letting them watch TV, which for me at least, was a treat that was earned.

We don't have that now. Parents will basically put their kid in front of whatever device will hold their attention, be it a TV, a laptop, a smartphone, or a tablet. If Dora the Explorer, regardless on how terrible that show is, holds their three year old's attention and keeps them quiet, that's what a parent will do.

Now, I fully admit that I'm not a parent. But as some of you (depending if you follow me in the fan fic thread) know that I watched a friend's 2 then turned 3 year old a few year's ago. I got her watching the Muppets, Scooby Doo, Spongebob, and Walking with Dinosaurs because 1. that's what I was watching and 2. the compromise was that we'd watch something we'd both enjoy (read: what I would enjoy, which just happened to fit child requirements)

By far, her most requested things to watch were Muppet Babies, Spongebob, and Scooby Doo. She was also requesting that we listen to the news every morning because, again at the time, that was what I did.

So yes, you can get kids into watching quality television. The problem is, I'm sure after I left, the Muppet (which was the nickname she decided on) stopped watching the shows I liked and once again began watching whatever made her be quiet. Which is sad cause another month and she would've had Rainbow Connection down...

Anyway, we can't technically blame kids for their lack of interests, it's parents who aren't parenting that's the problem. I mean, how many kids hate veggies and fruits because they have in their heads they're gross, but after trying them, they love it?

Exactly, I don't want to be part of a fandom where if you're not a fan then you're not part of society, like you mentioned Marvel, Doctor Who, Harry Potter, etc, if you say you haven't seen a Doctor Who or read all the Harry Potters, people look at you from another planet.

To the point, I love being a part of the Muppets, especially on this board with so many awesome fans and yes, I do like that we're a fandom that pretty much accepts everyone cause that's the Muppet way, you know.

But I also kinda wish that we were a bigger fandom, because look at what's been achieved by these big fandoms - Marvel has become a comic movie juggernaught, Harry Potter has it's own theme park, and Doctor Who is still going strong at 52 years. Now, with that said, I'm glad we aren't broken into segments - like Marvel comic fans vs movie fans or HP book fans vs movie fans (in these cases, it's one or the other - they're either fans of the books, hated the movies (or liked the movies, but still prefer the books) or they're movie fans who've never read the books/comics).

The same is true for Doctor Who - there are classic Who and modern Who fans, though really true fans have seen the entire run and may prefer one over the other.

Here, I've always gotten the sense that rather it's a movie or a TV show, we love ALL of it; now, in the case of this new show, we're divided (probably more so than I've ever seen here) and to me, at least, we've really gotten into a 'classic vs modern' mindset. Again, Doctor Who, Star Wars, and even Star Trek are great examples of this "if it's not like the original, then it's horrible" and I've seen people post that.

Now look, if you know me, you know I'm the last person to be in the middle and say I like originals better than the remakes, cause it all depends. I prefer TNG over the original series, but I defend to the death the original trilogy over the prequels; the overall point is that, for everyone who, let's face it hated this new show and format, it was mostly "this isn't the original Muppet Show I watched". And that's because it's not going to be and it never will as long as Jim Henson is dead.

Was this new show great? No. Could it be? Yes, as shown by the show getting better with later episodes. A lot of people aren't looking forward to a second season after this last one, but I'd like to point those folks to the first season of TMS, which is by far, the worst season. I'll also point to the first two seasons of TNG, the first seasons of Cheers, Seinfeld, Family Guy, Always Sunny in Philadelphia, and a bunch more.

Those shows, which are now classics, didn't start out being great and neither did TMS. TNG found it's stride, really, in season 3 and to be technical, it was the season finale that made it that way. Family Guy was cancelled, twice, before hitting it's stride around season 4 or 5. Now, granted, as someone mentioned, these shows were back in the days where comedies were given a chance, where as today, they would have been cancelled in a heartbeat.

My point - after this seemingly very long rant - is that, the fact that this first season was not only given extra episodes, but was retooled because of fan dislike shows that executives at least tried to fix it. I personally would love to see a season 2, which will hopefully take all of the feedback and suggestions and look at the episodes that performed well, and go from there. I'm not happy that Kermit & Denise had an invisible relationship that really just consisted on Kermit having this rebound girlfriend who appeared four times and then broke up with him.

As much as I'm not shipping those two, it would've been nice - would be nice - to see if Kermit learned anything from that experience before getting back together with Piggy (which I would guess would be a major theme in season 2). Anyway, I would much rather have a 30 Rock type atmosphere, which was basically TMS with real people and starring Tina Fey and Alec Baldwin (which OMG, if they don't have Tina Fey in the next season, that would be a travesty).

A second, better season would show not only the network, but the fans that the Muppets can survive the new modern world, but only if we as fans are watching it. Dismissing it because it's not TMS, is like saying you aren't going to go to any more Muppet movies because they aren't the original trilogy (MM,GMC, and MTM). Dismissing the show because the first season is uneven is different, however as RomanZ pointed out, we may not get another chance at Muppets if we don't do our part in at least checking out the show.

The other issue, for me at least, is cable. I don't have it, so I'm relying on Hulu to get my new season fixes. There are two problems with this - 1. Hulu's video interface is crap and their commercials are crap, especially when both work in tandem to not load the video that I'm paying to watch and 2. recently, Hulu & FX pulled a stunt where I can ONLY watch new seasons through a cable subscription (so I can either connect Hulu to my cable subscription or just go the channel's site, logging in with my subscription). This defeats the purpose of Hulu and then of course, puts me in the position of buying cable, which no. Or getting my shows through other means.

Now, I only know of FX doing this (which makes sense considering Hulu didn't even carry FX shows until like a year or two ago), but there's a chance that ABC could do it as well, meaning...no network viewing numbers. But do you know what could turn that around? Netflix. Netflix has proven to give life into a series or bring a series back (Clone Wars, Scandal, American Horror Story, Fuller House, Sword of Destiny); what could really help now would be Disney - which already has a deal with Netflix and why many Disney movies (sadly, all of the Muppet movies are gone) are streaming - getting with Netflix and getting the show the site.

Better interface and BIGGER numbers, not just of us, but other viewers.

If we got TMS (which most of the episodes are on YouTube) or even better, this show on Netflix, it could get better numbers considering that some people aren't watching cable, but have Netflix or even Amazon (which I don't recall seeing the show on their line-up); Hulu I don't think cuts it anymore, especially not when it's turning to cable subs for their programming, where Netflix and Amazon aren't AND, currently they also two of the best shows, EMMY nominated shows, on right now.

I would honestly rather see a Netflix Muppet movie than a theater one, but a good Muppet movie, not a rehash of one of their movies (like MMW) or based on something (MTI, MWO, MCC), something new; it could even tie in with the series (which I'd rather have and I think the series should've tied in with at least TM).

And again, Netflix has been proven effective. There were a lot of shows that I only knew about or saw on Netflix that has made me want to watch the current season (these are current shows, I'm saying). I didn't even know about Sherlock until I saw it on Netflix, nor the Blacklist (which I'm behind on); my newest show is Bob's Burgers, which I originally dismissed, despite being such a fan of Archer (Archer is another show I discovered on Netflix).

I also discovered 30 Rock this way.

Even Family Guy, American Dad, and Once Upon a Time are shows that I've gone back to catch up on before a season premiere. This would be a perfect vehicle for The Muppets to get new viewers, as well as for us to watch the show uninterrupted! and would really be good for (fingers crossed) upcoming seasons.

Okay, this was a much longer post than intended, but that's my thing and I'm done now. I promise!

 

[Muppet Master]

That's the problem, TBH.

Parents.

Yes, typically parents will sit a kid down to watch something that they enjoy and depending on the age (under 5 is better), most kids will enjoy whatever you let them watch because, duh, you're letting them watch TV, which for me at least, was a treat that was earned.

We don't have that now. Parents will basically put their kid in front of whatever device will hold their attention, be it a TV, a laptop, a smartphone, or a tablet. If Dora the Explorer, regardless on how terrible that show is, holds their three year old's attention and keeps them quiet, that's what a parent will do.

That's pretty much it, I doubt a parent is going to go out of their way to dig up The Muppets on DVD when Dora is right there on Netflix, the muppets definetly need more streaming exposure that's for sure. Also, a kid is going to watch anything that's colorful and energetic, so it's not like they really care about the quality, to them The Lion King is on the same level as a Calliou episode.

Was this new show great? No. Could it be? Yes, as shown by the show getting better with later episodes.

I'm pretty sure half of the fanbase and most of the public is going to reject a new production simply because it's not Jim Henson, MMW was a thousand times better than MTM, but most dismissed it as boring and dull, and where's Jason Siegel, it was a great film that truly was nearly as good as the classic films. As for the new show, we got what we got, I personally loved it, I can understand some of the complaints, but ones that are along the lines of "this is ruining my childhood" are juust plain dumb. Even if this show started out on the quality of the last 3 episodes, audiences would still reject it like MMW for minor complaints.

My point - after this seemingly very long rant - is that, the fact that this first season was not only given extra episodes, but was retooled because of fan dislike shows that executives at least tried to fix it. I personally would love to see a season 2, which will hopefully take all of the feedback and suggestions and look at the episodes that performed well, and go from there. I'm not happy that Kermit & Denise had an invisible relationship that really just consisted on Kermit having this rebound girlfriend who appeared four times and then broke up with him.

The sad thing is after people leave, it's very hard to get them back, also some of the things they tried to change pretty much failed to make the show better. Those "sketches" were pretty unnecesary and cringe-worthy, getting rid of Denise for a public that wasn't watching the show in the first place. Ya, it wasn't until "Little Green Lie" that the show was back on track with the quality of "Going, Going, Gonzo", "Single All the Way", and "Pig's In a Blackout", but by then it was too late. I say they should have not done a retooling, they should have continued the show in January and maybe sprinkled a repeat or two around and have it end on the same date in March, that way people likely wouldn't have left like they did, most saw the winter finale as the finale, and didn't come back. Ya, basically the reboot made the show have to in some ways restart itself, and when it finally got back on track it was the finale, they could have at least given it a full season, better yet a good timeslot, maybe after Modern Family, why have your most anticipated show fend for itself against The Voice and NCIS, simply no reason.

 

[WebMistressGina]

I'm pretty sure half of the fanbase and most of the public is going to reject a new production simply because it's not Jim Henson, MMW was a thousand times better than MTM, but most dismissed it as boring and dull, and where's Jason Siegel, it was a great film that truly was nearly as good as the classic films. As for the new show, we got what we got, I personally loved it, I can understand some of the complaints, but ones that are along the lines of "this is ruining my childhood" are juust plain dumb. Even if this show started out on the quality of the last 3 episodes, audiences would still reject it like MMW for minor complaints.

From the comments about the show here, the fan base DID reject it because it wasn't Jim Henson based. Now, again I happen to love MTM (it's my second favorite movie of the 'originals'), but I also liked MMW, though not for the storyline per se (I really don't understand how the others could have not noticed the differences between Kermit and Constantine other than 'finally, Kermit is letting us have our way!' which should have been, 'wait a minute. Kermit is letting us have our way?') but it was enjoyable. It certainly didn't ruin my childhood.

Now, again, I will and have decried things that HAVE ruined my childhood. I don't care what anyone says, Michael Bay is ruining our childhoods and I demand you people stop giving him money!! You'll all come to regret it when he gets seated behind the wheel of a Care Bears movie. Just watch.

I also didn't mind the more adult-ish moves - I am an adult after all - so I'm not about to dis characters, who let's face it, in reality are well past 60 when it comes to drinking alcohol. Adults drinks and Rowlf runs a bar, across the street from their work; don't you think his friends would support him by going there? And from what I've seen, it's not like a dive or a 'bar bar' where you have smoky back room deals; it looked like a modern bar. Modern bars allow children (though, it would be wonderful if they didn't) for their restaurant portion, however you have to be 21 to SIT at said bar, even if you aren't drinking alcohol.

So Robin being in Rowlf's bar (am I imaging that he's called Rowlf 'uncle' before? Like an honorary uncle, due to his friendship with Kermit? Because I've had this idea in my head that I thought was based in fact and now I'm not sure) is completely normal in the scope of reality.

Fozzie dating? Normal, even the fact that he's dating a 'human' girl is par for the course (ahem, the leader and leading lady are interspecies; even when they broke up, the frog dated a pig. the head writer is in love with a chicken). People crying over this makes no sense.

Kermit cross-promoting with Denise - cringey, but not the first time the Muppets have gone under the radar; the reason it's a problem is because we're adults now and we're actually getting these jokes, which should make them funnier.

The sad thing is after people leave, it's very hard to get them back, also some of the things they tried to change pretty much failed to make the show better. Those "sketches" were pretty unnecesary and cringe-worthy, getting rid of Denise for a public that wasn't watching the show in the first place. Ya, it wasn't until "Little Green Lie" that the show was back on track with the quality of "Going, Going, Gonzo", "Single All the Way", and "Pig's In a Blackout", but by then it was too late. I say they should have not done a retooling, they should have continued the show in January and maybe sprinkled a repeat or two around and have it end on the same date in March, that way people likely wouldn't have left like they did, most saw the winter finale as the finale, and didn't come back. Ya, basically the reboot made the show have to in some ways restart itself, and when it finally got back on track it was the finale, they could have at least given it a full season, better yet a good timeslot, maybe after Modern Family, why have your most anticipated show fend for itself against The Voice and NCIS, simply no reason.

I totally agree about Denise and as I told The Count, the whole point of her was to have the excuse of breaking up Kermit & Piggy, which was a ploy for the show that, TBH, backfired on them. That whole triangle was handled poorly, especially given the publicity around them breaking up and starting the show with Kermit dating someone else.

We can't go back now, but the best thing here for S2 would be for Kermit and Piggy to SLOWLY get back together, but be FRIENDS first! The latter is sorta taken care of, as they were learning to be friends this last season and of course they have a history together, but again, I hold the theory that they hadn't really been friends in the first place, so this gives them a reason to hopefully learn from their mistakes.

But this is also where my case for Netflix comes up. As mentioned, there were and are a lot of shows - current shows - that are running on Netflix that I discovered through the site. I wouldn't own Archer if someone hadn't shown me the first and second seasons on Netflix, nor would I have known about Sherlock. I really think it's better for ABC and Disney to try season 2 with Netflix instead of network; Netflix isn't in a rush to get out a show - hence why it takes a year for House of Cards and OITNB to premiere - but, from those two, they actually take the time to build a good show.

A good example would be Fuller House, which is pretty much a love letter to fans and is doing well enough, it just got a season 2 greenlight. This is literally a remake of Full House, but with the original cast. Reruns could also help, but those are based on cable and I just don't think the viewership is there or at least, they wouldn't return for cable.

I think they would for streaming. One of the reasons why I'm so behind on the show - besides uneveness and Hulu in general - is simple: Netflix has spoiled me. I hate this return to waiting a week or more for my show to return after a hiatus; yes, I waited the year for House of Cards (worth it!) and still have 3 more months till OITNB, but I can binge through episodes, which works for me as I work from home and then I can watch in the morning or during lunch or whenever I want without this 'I can only watch the show on ABC at this time' and because I'm on the west coast, the show is pretty much spoiled for me cause you east coasters or those in other countries, get the show before I do.

At least with Netflix, we get it all at once, we can watch it whenever and I'll state the quality would be better.

 

[WebMistressGina]

So...I meant to add that, my brain has already started on season 2 'episodes' if IF the show doesn't get picked up or if it DOES, my stuff will of course be fanon and not canon, but if anyone would like to see those (cause right now they are ideas that may never see the light of day), let me know.

This would also force me to finish watching the show, which I should do, I just get busy and kinda forget and you know...new premieres and stuff.

 

[The Count]

Dang it, Gins, how many times I gotta tell you... Finish watching The Muppets! then you'll know all the little in-jokes/references we throw around in our replies here. *Tosses pun after gets another Piggy or Kardashian tweet wrong.

has spoken.

 

[Drtooth]

From the comments about the show here, the fan base DID reject it because it wasn't Jim Henson based. Now, again I happen to love MTM (it's my second favorite movie of the 'originals'), but I also liked MMW, though not for the storyline per se (I really don't understand how the others could have not noticed the differences between Kermit and Constantine other than 'finally, Kermit is letting us have our way!' which should have been, 'wait a minute. Kermit is letting us have our way?') but it was enjoyable. It certainly didn't ruin my childhood.

In defense of MMW, it's pretty obvious that they were trying to really slaughter the evil twin trope as well as the "How gullible can the heroes be" extremely annoying trope. If the Muppets knew that it wasn't Kermit, the film would've been over in like 10 minutes.

The sad thing is after people leave, it's very hard to get them back, also some of the things they tried to change pretty much failed to make the show better. Those "sketches" were pretty unnecesary and cringe-worthy, getting rid of Denise for a public that wasn't watching the show in the first place. Ya, it wasn't until "Little Green Lie" that the show was back on track with the quality of "Going, Going, Gonzo", "Single All the Way", and "Pig's In a Blackout", but by then it was too late. I say they should have not done a retooling, they should have continued the show in January and maybe sprinkled a repeat or two around and have it end on the same date in March, that way people likely wouldn't have left like they did, most saw the winter finale as the finale, and didn't come back. Ya, basically the reboot made the show have to in some ways restart itself, and when it finally got back on track it was the finale, they could have at least given it a full season, better yet a good timeslot, maybe after Modern Family, why have your most anticipated show fend for itself against The Voice and NCIS, simply no reason.

That's the thing that bugs me. You only get one chance to make a first impression, and as I've said a hundred times by now, shows usually have shaky first seasons. Seinfeld is an overused example... anyone actually think the first season of the Simpsons was great? Took until maybe third season to really find itself. I'd say second, but third's usually the consensus. But imagine if the show was as cartoony and goofy as "Some Enchanted Evening," preferably the Kent Butterworth animated version. We wouldn't have the surviving the apocalypse level of renewal security series that's still on the air. That said, Fox is renewing Scream Queens even though that was supposedly a flop, and I'm sure that Grandfathered which came in under The Muppets is going to continue because John Stamos would fund the whole thing by himself to keep that stinker running. Of course, this was the network that thought everyone would loooooove Till Death and renewed it like twice before they took the hint. Not to mention the fact that ABC constantly renewed certain sitcoms to just dump them in Summer (Drew Carey Show and According to Jim). And why the heck did CBS keep renewing "Rules of Engagement?" I can't believe that thing had an audience.

The Muppets found close enough to its voice mid-way through, changed stuff, and regained that voice mid-way through that. The relationship stuff was hit or miss, and frankly it only hit when the Miss was Miss Piggy (Glob, that's tortured, sorry). I liked Fozzie being in a relationship with a human fine, but they didn't use it to its full potential. Gonzo trying and failing at blind dates was cute on paper, but didn't work. Had they had giant sticks of butter and stunt spectaculars to begin with, the wacky Muppets would have meshed better with the more sitcomy style Muppets. I'd hope a season 2 would remember to cut real life-y relationship stuff and production stuff with more of what made Going Going Gonzo great. Which is the only reason I'd be annoyed by this show not getting renewed. There's potential to fix everything and make the show great with another season.

 

[minor muppetz]

And why the heck did CBS keep renewing "Rules of Engagement?" I can't believe that thing had an audience.

Me and my parents watched it throughout its run, and I know at least one other person who regularly watched it. But what I wonder is why so many seasons began in mid-season.

But as much as I liked it, I haven't watched it very often since it ended.

 

[Muppet Master]

That's the thing that bugs me. You only get one chance to make a first impression, and as I've said a hundred times by now, shows usually have shaky first seasons. Seinfeld is an overused example... anyone actually think the first season of the Simpsons was great? Took until maybe third season to really find itself. I'd say second, but third's usually the consensus. But imagine if the show was as cartoony and goofy as "Some Enchanted Evening," preferably the Kent Butterworth animated version. We wouldn't have the surviving the apocalypse level of renewal security series that's still on the air. That said, Fox is renewing Scream Queens even though that was supposedly a flop .

I always try to wait a while before I hang up on a show, but ya The Simpsons and Seinfeld were not very enjoyable in their first seasons, and TMS was basically a disaster in it's first season, I would say Seinfeld found it's voice in season 3, same for The Simpsons, TMS season 2, thanks to the change in writers and characters. But no one wanted to wait around a couple of episodes for a few episodes for a new muppet show to hit it's stride, anyways I doubt they would even stay if the pilot was "Pig's in a Blackout" they would probably shove in on their DVR after watching 15 minutes on the pilot and turn on some singing competition garbage. As you've said many times long before this premiered, a new muppet show could never work on network TV. Audiences just want their reality garbage and cheap laugh track sitcoms. Also, Scream Queens was a major flop, why it was renewed, probably to save face.

 

[BlakeConor14]

Season 2 (if we get one ) needs to reach a bigger audience not just reliing on us fans

 

[WebMistressGina]

I always try to wait a while before I hang up on a show, but ya The Simpsons and Seinfeld were not very enjoyable in their first seasons, and TMS was basically a disaster in it's first season, I would say Seinfeld found it's voice in season 3, same for The Simpsons, TMS season 2, thanks to the change in writers and characters.

I had forgotten about the Simpsons, which did have a so-so first season, but I also think it was because it was still drawing on the Tracey Ullman Show for familiarity (I still can't believe this show has literally been on for nearly my entire life). I honestly think season 2 was the turn around for the series, thanks to the first Treehouse of Horror with both the classic Hungry are the ****** and the Raven bits, but yes, the start of season 3 lead to what we past Simpsons call 'classic' Simpsons (read: better and funnier episodes)

But no one wanted to wait around a couple of episodes for a few episodes for a new muppet show to hit it's stride, anyways I doubt they would even stay if the pilot was "Pig's in a Blackout" they would probably shove in on their DVR after watching 15 minutes on the pilot and turn on some singing competition garbage. As you've said many times long before this premiered, a new muppet show could never work on network TV. Audiences just want their reality garbage and cheap laugh track sitcoms. Also, Scream Queens was a major flop, why it was renewed, probably to save face.

First, I happen to have LOVED Scream Queens, thank you very much and so did plenty other people. So there! LOL

But back to earlier, I'm with you on the whole 'singing' competition deal, especially considering very few of these 'winners' go on to bigger things. Even American Idol can really, technically count two, maybe three successful, award winning artists who have gone on to commercial success and out of those three, only one is actually still recording (though I guess Kelly Clarkson has come back to recording).

And I know I keep saying it, but I really really really really think a better streaming option is the best par for course here, and this is saying that a season 2 doesn't come our way and if another movie was going to happen, it now won't or it's up in the air. Now, I am saying this as someone who longs for the day when cable will just die the death that's been coming to it, especially when most ratings aren't taking into account those who DVR or watch on Hulu/ABC.com.

Would we, as a fan base, make a dent in ratings? Maybe, why not? Fans can be a great source for getting a show back on the air (The X-Files, Veronica Mars, Fuller House), so even if this venture didn't work, I don't think Disney would spend the money to just let it die when obviously they're fans who will spend money for it. The problem is, we're fans and we ask that if you play in our playground, you do it right and TBH, at this moment, only Jason Seigal was able to do it right.

Again, the retool was needed, but it didn't go as far as it could've or came in to late. Now, fingers crossed - I would love a second season that could deliver more of the 'quality' episodes that we liked and less of the ones we didn't. I didn't mind the behind the scenes/real life stuff, I liked it, but as others have said, make it more 30 Rock and less the Office/Parks & Rec. 30 Rock, Frasier, even the classics like Mary Tyler Moore and Dick Van Dyke had perfect balances between work and home, especially when all of these shows dealt with working on a show and dealing with crazies and then dealing with crazies at home (more Frasier than the others).

What 30 Rock, MTMS, and DVDS did was blend in both work and life; this was especially done well with 30 Rock and MTMS where work friends were also home life friends so trying to escape work was impossible when the person at your door was your boss/co-worker. THAT is what an upcoming Muppet season should be, especially when you have several cast members dating each other.

Ugh, now that I have it in my head, that would be the most awesome of Muppet shows. A show combining the modern style of 30 Rock, the balance of MTMS/DVDS with the zaniness of the Muppets!? My dreams...so close...