Your Thoughts: Kermit and Miss Piggy on America's Got Talent

[TheMonsterAteMe]

So yeah, I actually take back my initial comments, and say that I agree 100% with theprawncracker

 

[TheMonsterAteMe]

And Steve does not right the scripts. Its the WRITING that is making Kermit one note. Well, Some of the writing.

I thought Kermit was GREAT in the new xmas special

 

[SarahOnBway]

This thread has forced me out of lurkerdom for the first time in... a very, very long time (so hullo everybody!).

As someone who has been fortunate enough to sit in the same room with Steve and Kermit (and Dave and Gonzo and later the Riz) last November in Atlanta, I have to say that some of these things you all are saying really hurt my heart. Like Ryan, I can't believe people are still so anti-Steve. I thought it was all in the past.

First of all, in response to his "flamboyancy" as of late... people have to remember that, as an actor, you only have yourself as your template. Ralph Fiennes can't BE Voldemort (for another example); while he's portraying him, he's still Ralph Fiennes, and little things that are intristically him will merge with the character to create something new. That's what acting is, in part. Kermit's calmness was an inherant part of Jim, just as Kermit's energy is such a big part of Steve. This is, after all, the same person who gave us Wembley.

But to say that he's one-note is, I believe, wrong. Like I said, I was lucky enough to meet the man last year and, during the Kermit-section, he was answering questions from the audience and conversing with Gonzo in a very easy, calm, relaxed manner. At one point a question about the transition to Kermit came up, and Steve said, "I'll take this one," and spoke, while Kermit sat back. While he was talking he mentioned Jim and Kermit, without any awknowledgement on Steve's part, almost entirely of his own accord, looked up sadly and then bowed his head. It was just a little moment but it WOWED me, sitting 15 rows back in the theater, at just how much talent Steve has and how connected he was with Kermit.

Yes, Kermit has been hyper during his recent talk-show visits. Yes, he has disparaged the pig on quite a few occassions--but I think these are things audiences on the whole have come to expect and look forward to from a Kermit experience. They want Kermit on The View making Whoopi laugh and on Jimmy Kimmel making almost-inappropriate remarks. These are things the audience expects these days, and the things that will hold their attention. Gone are the days where Kermit is so well known that he can appear on Arsinio Hall and let a completely unknown Muppet (Clifford) do all the talking. Gone are the days where people will watch a Muppet-free special because Kermit introduces it. That's not Steve's fault, don't blame him.

Since Jim passed, The Muppets have been in a constant state of transition. That can't be easy for anyone involved. And if they ever have a weekly television show again, I'm sure you'd see a calmer Kermit, like TMS days--you simply can't have the character that excited all of the time when you're doing 24 half hours. But Steve has been playing Kermit for the last nineteen years, as has been noted many times earlier on this thread. No one here knows what that's like. No one here knows as much about Kermit has he does. We should trust in him.

The hard part about the frog is that it feels like he belongs to us. He does belong to us all, in a way. And it's hard when you don't like the changes something you cherish so dearly goes through. But the solace we all have is that: he will always belong to us, no matter what happens.

On the subject of America's Got Talent, I'm sure the puppeteer did the best of his ability and I appreciate that. It would have looked poorly on the Muppets to cancel such a high profile gig. That said, I have to believe that the change isn't permanent--surely we would have heard something in the last few weeks had a change like THAT gone down at Disney. If they had to do it this time fine, whatever, I'm not going to make a big stink over 3 minutes on a mediocre television program. If this was a special I'd be fuming, but it wasn't. Let's just hope we get confirmation from someone soon that Steve's not going anywhere.

...Back to lukerdom here come I...

 

[dwmckim]

Firstly, thanks to the mods for keeping this thread open - i do think that often the mods are way too quick to close threads and i'm glad they realized this wasn't really necessairy to do and re-opened it.

Second, it seems a lot of people are not only waaay overreacting to the performance but also things said here...unless posts are being edited or deleted, when did anyone suggest that Artie should totally replace Steve? When did anyone suggest that Steve quit or was fired?

If any clear conclusion that can be drawn from this thread (no matter if you were pro or anti Artie's performance or anywhere in between), is that when it comes to recasts (especially the major characters) passions run high. I think we really get touchy and overly emotional because deep down the whole issue touches on something we don't want to think about or acknowledge (but being a fact of life it won't go away no matter how much we may stick our fingers in our ears and loudly sing "LA LA LA LINOLEUM!") - the fact that Muppeteers are human, subject to aging, illness, and mortality. The sad fact that we must face is that if the Muppets go on for the next several decades, there will eventually come a time when Kermit will need to be passed on from Steve to someone else (and given the tendancy for inflamed passions to jump on things and twist them here i have to add a disclaimer that my saying this is NOT a suggestion that i'm advocating this to happen RIGHT NOW - TODAY - THIS VERY MOMENT - BUH BUH STEVE! I want all the main - and secondary - Muppeteers to do their jobs as long as possible. But each person will eventually reach a time when it is indeed "no longer possible")

The funny thing is for some reason before all this happened, something got me thinking about Dave Goelz this weekend. He's getting up there in years and is the last of the original TMS "main five" still actively performing. The time may very well come in the next ten years when he may need an understudy (temp or permanant) - and Gonzo is going to be incredibly hard to recast due to voice and three-dimensional-ness/complexity of the character.

We all take heart in examples like Carroll Spinney, who despite being one of the oldest Muppeteers (born before almost all of those past and present who have made up the team) still is able to not only voice Big Bird but take on the incredibly challenging task of suit puppeteering. But of course he also has Matt Vogel. Frank has had Eric Jacobson (and David Rudman as Cookie). We've generally accepted them even though each fan has done so at various speeds.

Besides age, people also are prone to illness or conditions like back problems, voice problems, wrist/arm probelms, arthritis, and so on and so forth. Even if someone's in perfect health, who's to say that tomorrow, Kevin Clash may not be in a plane or car accident? Any of the CA-based performers could be affected by the current fires. Any one of us could go at any time or find ourselves facing a physical challenge one day or one year we didn't have to worry about before.

We have learned the hard way from the losses of Jim and Richard that it's wise for the Muppeteers to have understudies. We don't like to think about bad things happening to the people we love and we sincerely hope they don't - but the cold hard fact is EVERY single Muppeteer will one day be unable to continue and it's wise to prepare for a tragedy ahead of time rather than be caught unprepared when something happens and have being caught off-guard lead to a situation where having to start from square one causes everything to come to a screeching halt for a couple years.

Other people perform the frog (and all the main characters all the time) when more than one character by the same performer is in a scene at the same time and just the voice gets looped (well most of the time anyway). I think a lot of tempers are on hair trigger just because as of yet we don't know what happened with Steve and by extention when he'll be back doing what we want him to. And a lot of this anger/confusion is being misdirected. As i said upthread no matter what we thought of Artie's performance (that most of America didn't catch on that anything was askew), we should be thankful that he was able to fill in and keep things going.

I know i'm being repetitive but given how emotions are high and people are apt to read too much into things, i have to make very clear what i'm saying and what i'm not .. and still expect to be misquoted or have someone take something the wrong way...but i will once again say we're all pulling for Steve - we want him and all our fave people who bring the characters we love to life to do what they've done for as long as they can. We'll all most likely feel better once we know what happened behind the scenes that required a (what is expected to be a very temporary) fill-in. But we all need to accept that one day Steve will have to pass on the character to someone else - hopefully not for many more years/decades.

 

[theprawncracker]

As i said upthread no matter what we thought of Artie's performance (that most of America didn't catch on that anything was askew), we should be thankful that he was able to fill in and keep things going.

I couldn't agree with this statement more. I really haven't said how brave I think it was for Artie to go out there like that, heat of the moment, and perform the Frog. It was a courageous act--I just want to know why he had to do it. I place none of this blame on Artie and I'm sure he's a nice fellow and a good performer. It's just jarring to not see/hear Steve performing Kermit after he has for 19 years.

 

[Frogpuppeteer]

I'm just glad that Disney cares enough about the Muppets (and the Muppet fans) to keep putting them out there.

Let's hope that this is just the first of many more fun, funny, and high profile television appearances.

More Muppets please!

this is how i have always felt with new projects, as for the voice of kermit it was a good effort, sure at times it was a little off but hey, can any of us honestly say as a last minute performance handed kermit the frog we would sound exactly like Jim or even Steve

 

[SJohnson]

Great News!

Some of the responses here bother me to no end. Some of you people are actually proposing that this new guy (identified at Tough Pigs as Artie Esposito) should just completely usurp Steve Whitmire for the part of Kermit.

Wow! That's great news! Artie Esposito has worked with Swazzle on both live and video projects. In Los Angeles, we have access to the industry's top puppeteers, and Patrick and I hand picked him to work for Swazzle because of his amazing puppetry skills, outstanding voices, and pure professionalism - not to mention he is a kind and gentle person, and a great team player. For those of you familiar with Swazzle, you know that we only work with the best puppeteers.

Artie has also been involved in Jim Henson's Puppet Up Uncensored for the past two years. As a puppet instructor for The Jim Henson Company, I can tell you that his puppetry is world class and top notch.

Finally as a personal friend of Artie, I can say that it's been his life long dream to work for the Muppets. If it was him doing Kermit the Frog for that appearance, than we all witnessed his dream coming true. If I learned anything from Jim Henson it's that if we believe in ourselves we can make our dreams come true.

 

[Convincing John]

As someone who has been fortunate enough to sit in the same room with Steve and Kermit (and Dave and Gonzo and later the Riz) last November in Atlanta...

...I was lucky enough to meet the man last year and, during the Kermit-section, he was answering questions from the audience and conversing with Gonzo in a very easy, calm, relaxed manner. At one point a question about the transition to Kermit came up, and Steve said, "I'll take this one," and spoke, while Kermit sat back. While he was talking he mentioned Jim and Kermit, without any awknowledgement on Steve's part, almost entirely of his own accord, looked up sadly and then bowed his head. It was just a little moment but it WOWED me, sitting 15 rows back in the theater, at just how much talent Steve has and how connected he was with Kermit....

Holy cow...you got to see Steve and Dave? Lucky! It sounds like you had a great time.

First up, I'm a fan of Steve. Have been since Fraggle Rock. I think his Kermit is just Kermit. Steve's Kermit is "Kermity" enough for me. Yeah, his talk show appearances have a "hyper" vibe to 'em, but MCC? So soon after Jim died and I saw that movie...I saw the "new Kermit" and tell ya, (and I hope Steve reads this), I
waited until the Muppeteer credits rolled by at the end (the audience had left by then). When Steve's name went by, I stood and applauded him. I thought the same thing Kynan did when he first saw Kermit in MCC:

I want to go on the record here and say that I have loved Steve's Kermit from the very first moment. That "If you please" line just wrapped its arms around my fanboy heart and said, "It's gonna be okay."

http://www.toughpigs.com/myweekxmascarol01.htm

And later, he and Danny also said what I (and I'm sure a lot of other die hard Muppet fans) thought during the scene where Tiny Tim had died:

Danny: The scene of Kermit and Piggy grieving over Tiny Tim is really intense, though. It's the best Muppet acting I've ever seen.

Kynan: Well, those tears aren't for Tiny Tim. Jerry Juhl knew it, Brian knew it, and Steve and Frank knew it, and that's what's coming through here. It's a beautiful scene.


Steve, in my book, is a brilliant performer with one of the most beloved characters to carry on his shoulders (or more specifically on his right arm).

I'm going to watch the "America's Got Talent" appearance again and post on it (to get things back on topic), but I just had to comment on my support for Steve.

And as for Beaker, no one but Richard knew where Beaker came from. Beaker is a "body language" type of character. Although mute, Sully is kind of along those same lines.

Convincing John

 

[Beauregard]

Something that I think has gotten lost amidst and shock and horror (and blood spilling ) of Alternate-Kermit is that this performance was sweet, romantic, funny (Hello Chickens!), and although it was short-lived and kinda pointless, it seemed well thought out (for such a quick thing) and all round awesome.

Eric Jacobson (sir) was amazing as Miss Piggy. The singing voice, yes, but more importantly all the subtle movements were there! I've been watching a lot of classic Pig while making music videos these days, and there were so many things I noticed her do, that Eric was doing with the pig. Head nods, hair flicks, arm movements, shoulder shrugs, the moment when he turned around and looked at the screen and you could see her emotions running high. Delightful.

Bea{Hi Sarah!}regard

P.S. THIS is the kind of thing that is personal insult to Muppeteers, unnecessary, and not at all civil, right here:

Whitmire's nothing more than some guy inside a Mickey Mouse outfit at Disney World.

Shame on you.

 

[Convincing John]

Okay, I just watched the "America's Got Talent" bit:

I missed the appearance when it was on TV originally (I forgot to tape it before I went to work). Then I visited TP and MC on my break and suddenly noticed the feathers flying at both sites.
(Thank goodness for the handy YouTube link at Tough Pigs!)

I'm not sure how much I should say about Kermit right now. Until we know what's going on for sure, I don't want to jump on the bashing bandwagon.

I'll admit, something was amiss about Kermit's voice and the performance. A lot of factors come into play which many people have touched upon: either Steve was sick and did the performance anyway, Steve was unavailable and had an understudy, etc.

Unless Steve (or Eric or someone behind the scenes) comes on this Forum and confirms with 100% certainty who performed Kermit and why his voice sounded off/too deep/whatever, we just don't know for sure what's going on.

I remember a quote about Jim Henson I read once: "I see Jim's life as being a Zen kind of thing. I never heard him say rude or bad things about people. He lived, I think, by example. To show other people how to be by who you are."--Jerry Nelson

Jerry himself has visited this Forum. What do you think he'd say after reading all the negativity about this appearance?

If Steve was sick and went on anyway (could've happened), I simply hope that Steve is better...and that he go to the doctor if he feels worse! (Don't put it off like Jim did!) Get some cough syrup, rest up, whatever. Muppet fans should care about the health of the Muppeteers too. We all know being sick is bad enough. Being sick and having to survive the day at work makes the day a thousand times worse. (Karen Prell did this at one point with Red and remarked about it either here or in the old Delphi Forum).

If it were an understudy chosen at the last minute (which a lot of people say it was someone named Artie)...well, as the old saying goes "the show must go on". If that's the case, this whole scenario reminds me of the TMS Nancy Walker episode: Kermit's sick and Murphy's Law fell on poor Fozzie like a ton of bricks for that show.

The Kermit mystery aside, I have some other comments, my main one being about Eric's performance. (Thought I'd bring something positive to the discussion). I think Eric's Piggy is getting better all the time. Die hard fans know about this song done with Elton John years ago. I think Eric studied this too before the appearance. The voice, anyway, is getting closer to "Frank-as-Piggy-in-1979". Listen to the song at the Tough Pigs link and concentrate on Piggy's voice. Compare it with this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OX2WErOvD4

It's getting closer, especially with the "Ohhh, oh-oh, I gave you my heart" line. Eric's Piggy movements are different than Frank's, but they work. Each Muppeteer has their own set of signature "moves". Jim had that "bop-bop-bop" running move (think Mahna Mahna rushing to the camera from the distance or Kermit running onstage). Kevin Clash has a little "be-bop" dance move he does with Elmo and other Whatnots. Jerry Nelson kinda did this with Gobo, but being more experienced, the movements seem sharper and more disciplined. (Check out the song "I Knew I Was Good" from the episode "A Friend in Need" as an example).

Eric's developing his own "moves" too. He's also got a complex character to perform, one of the most complex Muppets of all. Frank put a lot of craft and hard work into developing Piggy over the years and I give a thumbs up to Eric for stepping up to the plate and being Frank's "Padawan", so to speak.

Oh, and I give a thumbs up to Steve, too!

Convincing John