Your Thoughts: It's a Very Merry Muppet Christmas

[frogboy4]

Zack

I don't really know how long it takes to make a DVD. I know that designing and testing the interactive menus can take some time and so do the extras. And then every piece has to be approved. It's a longer proccess than a tape. It will probably come out next fall (if I'm guessing right). Just a wild guess though.

 

[Manda:-D]

I'll be honest....I didn't watch all of it.....I was watching w/my impressionable sibs & easily offended dad, so we had to turn it off after the, like, 50th WAAY obvious innuendo. I'm dissapointed I missed the rest. From what yall say, it sounds like the 2nd half was better. I DID get to see the end, though!
Here's my praises & pans:
-OK, so the Muppets have ALWAYS had inneundos, but none of them had ever been that OBVIOUS before! Some of it just didn't seem to be in good taste.
-Anybody else notice how similar Fozzie's "we oughtta be ASHAMED of ourselves" speech, when everyone was about to back out b/c they weren't gonna get paid for a year, to the speech he gave during Muppet Caper? I LOVED that!
-I loved it when everybody was a/b to leave b/c Piggy left, b/c they'd "never done anything w/o her before", then how they got Kermit to bring her back!
-Lew's popping up @ random, desperate to get his act onstage! I LOVED it!!!!
-Howard bothered me....But more than anything, I guess that was just b/c they keep trying to add new male pig characters & abandoning poor Link & Dr. Strangepork! I WANT MY LINK BACK!!!!!!
-It's nice to have Fozzie, Kermit & Piggy in the foreground, & to have Scooter, Janice, & ROWLF back!
-I missed some dialogue in the beginning.....I just COULD NOT stop screaming how HAPPY I was that it was the old theater back!!!!! (W/a few changes!)
-I DID get to see The Kiss! It was nice and sweet, but then jumped right back into a joke! (As it should be!)
......A lot of the stuff, though, praticularly w/the humans, just bwere NOT in good taste! And, like someone here said, the Muppets lose something whrn they try to be "edgier". Heck, I'll be honest:Most of the people were just plain BAD!
-Alot of the stuff that bothered me, though, seemed to be just plain NBC's fault!
All in all, though, I have hope for the Muppets' future! Particularly if whoever takes them'll just back off & let them do what's proved to have worked for a long time!
(Please, don't hurt me. I'm a newbie.)

 

[FellowWLover]

To those of you who mention the new "edgier" Muppets:

We have been having a slightly more in depth conversation about just that issue on the other VMMCM thread which is simply entitled "Very Merry Muppet Christmas Movie" if you are interested in hearing what others have said on both sides of the issue.

 

[Phillip]

Here's a link to the discussion that Jessica mentioned...

http://forum.muppetcentral.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3755

 

[Skeeter Muppet]

I'm sorry to come across as a stick in the mud, but I am getting more irritated reading the fan reactions to this film than I was during the film itself, which is saying something. I guess I would feel a lot better if the common thought was that this was sub-par Muppets. You're all acting like the Muppets are back. They are only pseudo-back.

petrieboy, you are entitled to your opinion.

So are we. If we want to think that the Muppets are back, then don't try to make us think differently. Just because we don't see what you see doesn't make you right and us wrong.


-Kim

 

[Natalie]

And they'll never be back to the way they were before, but I think they're making a comeback...

 

[murgatoad]

Originally posted by petrieboy

1) If there is one thing I know about, it is Miss Piggy, because she is my favourite character and I have been obsessed for years. Anyone who can hardly tell the difference between Frank and Eric's voice just doesn't get it. Eric is WAY OFF on Piggy. The comic timing is NOT THERE. The singing voice is atrocious. I could not understand what she was saying half of the time- Frank always made her voice crystal clear

I beg to differ. I did not see the special, but I downloaded the clip at NBC.com. And IMO Eric is far far BETTER with Piggy than Frank has been for YEARS. In his last days performing Piggy, it was painfully obvious, at least to me, that Frank had lost his touch. Clearly he could no longer really do her voice (which is not surprising; men's voices deepen as they get older, after all.) Sometimes when Frank *tried* to do Piggy's voice, she sounded like she was being strangled, and she was so adenoidal I coulld barely understand her. It was a distinct relief to hear Piggy singing "Santa Baby" in that NBC clip IN TUNE and clearly and with a genuine sparkle and sexuality that "frankly" (pun intended) hadn't been seen in her for a long time. It helped of course that the puppet was far far better looking (except for the fat dumpy legs - which mercifully we only got a glimpse of) than some of the truly miserable puppets in recent years, but IMO Eric deserves a large share of the credit for how well she came over in that scene. I think he did a spectacular job. In his hands she displayed (at least in that scene; let's forget for the moment that pathetic appearance in the Macy's parade) real star power, and it was easy to see why she's a true star among the Muppet gang in fact as well as in attitude. That scene almost made me regret skipping the movie. And that's saying something.

 

[frogboy4]

I agree that it seems Oz lost his passion for the Muppets after Jim died. You can see it in how he withdrew from productions and how his characters were often dubbed. Voice replacement does take a lot of the spirit out of a performance. Plus, you're right. His voice was getting a lot deeper. Eric's Miss Piggy and Fozzie Bear are much closer to Frank's original characterization. It's good to know they Muppets can get by without Frank and Jim. I never would have thought it in a million years. The spirit is not just there, it's revived.

 

[beaker]

Originally posted by Skeeter Muppet
petrieboy, you are entitled to your opinion.

So are we. If we want to think that the Muppets are back, then don't try to make us think differently. Just because we don't see what you see doesn't make you right and us wrong.


-Kim

Good point. I said this to the firends I met at Muppetfest, and I'll reiterate it: 2003. Though 2002 was a goof road. I know in the past we thought 'oh! 1996 this will be the year!' then I remember me and Phil talking about '1999' on the chat in 1998.

The Muppets are not back yet, but they are on the right path.
I have a strong fervent almost zealous like hope and faith they'll be back next year. I mean if we didnt, and all we had to be happy and compacent and content about was old TMS episodes, what point would that do? Its sad, but theres some fans out there
who just preoccupy themselves in the world of yore...I on the other hand am looking towards the future.

 

[Chilly Down]

Petrieboy,

I appreciate your honesty and your courage to disagree. Here are some of my thoughts on what you said.

1) Eric may not be perfect, but honestly -- can you say you've ever heard a replacement where there wasn't some slight difference? Even when they've had to replace Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck (and those are near-flawless, in my opinion), there are ever-so-slight differences, because no two people have exactly the same vocal chords. As it is, I think Eric does a pretty amazing job. At any rate, isn't calling Eric "WAY OFF" an overreaction? Listen again to any of the other replacements: Brian as Scooter, Dave as Waldorf, and (yes, even) Steve as Kermit. Etc., etc., etc. If anyone deserves to be called "WAY OFF," it's them. For capturing the tonality and inflections of Frank's voice when performing Piggy (or Fozzie, for that matter), I think Eric is far closer than any of the aforementioned.

Two things to clarify: first, I'm not suggesting that we dump on Brian or Dave or Steve. They're all marvelous puppeteers, and I've learned (or am learning) to accept their new voices as new interpretations of those characters (like two different people playing James Bond) rather than worrying about exact vocal matches. Second, I'm not even saying that, if Eric were doing a bad job, we should just pretend like he's doing great because "in comparison" he's doing better than the others. The fact is, as someone who pays close attention to this kind of thing, I think the transition from one performer to another has been virtually seamless. If there's any difference at all, it's because Frank's voice has changed as he's gotten older. Eric's voice more accurately matches an earlier Piggy than Frank's current voice!

And to say "the singing voice is atrocious" and that Eric's Piggy "needs to take some singing lessons" -- when was the last time you watched The Muppet Movie? Piggy's big number, "Never Before and Never Again," is sung atrociously. She's SUPPOSED to be a bad singer -- that's part of the humor. Also listen to "Love Led Us Here" from Treasure Island, if you can. On that one, I'm still not sure if it was supposed to be funny, or if poor Frank's voice couldn't handle the strain anymore.

I suppose I would be more open to these comments if you had offered a good suggestion about what ought to be done. But Frank isn't coming back; nothing can be done about that. And we've already seen what it's like without his characters around. So I don't see what other option we have, especially because I think having Eric is hardly settling. You don't seem to think this is a "Henson-caliber puppet take over." Well, the previous Henson caliber has been, in my opinion, pretty poor. I think Eric actually raises the bar.

2) I agree with you that I miss a good Muppet musical. I don't begrudge them their lack of songs, though, because musicals are really considered passe right now. Disney stopped adding songs to their animated movies years ago. A good portion of the audience (not me) thinks breaking out into song is cheesy, and the last thing the Muppets can afford at this point is to alienate more audience members. I have a friend who falls into the coveted "18-30 yr. old nostalgia" group. He loves Sesame Street, but only barely tolerates the Muppet Show-related productions because he can't stand all the music in it. While many Muppet fans hated Muppets from Space, he actually liked it quite a bit. He was thrilled that there weren't any songs in it for a change! Mind you, his favorite moment in Shrek is when Donkey starts to break out into song and Shrek says, "SHUT UP! No singing!" or something to that effect. That, unfortunately, is the audience mentality we're dealing with right now.

I actually agree with you that there SHOULD be a good Muppet musical. I'm just saying I don't judge the Henson Company for their current decision to keep songs to a minimum. Even if I don't like it, I understand the reasoning behind it.

I like Paul Williams' work too. Who would you like to hear compose music for the next Muppet musical? I'd like to hear some suggestions from a bunch of different people on this.

3) You want them to use a real script rather than borrowing from someone else. Completely understandable, but keep in mind that Muppet Movie was borrowing from hundreds of "young kid goes to Hollywood" type stories, Muppet Caper borrowed from the crime/spy/detective movies of the day (as well as old Hollywood musicals, with some scenes being recreated almost shot-for-shot), and Muppets Take Manhattan borrowed from hundreds of "young actors take on Broadway stories." The Muppets have spoofed Arabian Nights, Robin Hood, Alice in Wonderland . . . the list goes on and on. So when doing a Christmas movie, I don't think it was so outrageous that they followed (and skewered) certain obvious conventions and scenes from more famous Christmas productions.

You seem to think that we're all just saying "the Muppets are back" and that we're choosing to be blind to any troubles in it. On the contrary -- while I liked it, I did speak up on certain things that I disliked. Others have done the same. I still think it's closer to the mark than the deluge of "storybook" projects or Muppets from Space. You said, "I feel like fans are yearning so badly for anything Muppet that they praise something far above what it deserves." Quite on the contrary; fans were VERY vocal about what they disliked about Muppets from Space and Muppets Tonight. Muppet fans don't take anything lying down. So if people are saying they like this movie, it's because they genuinely liked it, not because we just accept whatever Muppety thing comes our way.

Of course, you don't have to agree. You can think this movie was a waste, and that it failed to recapture the magic of the Muppets. I'm not trying to change your mind on any of that. The main issue I have is with the notion that we're not allowed to feel differently. You said, "I guess I would feel a lot better if the common thought was that this was sub-par Muppets." So should people say that they disliked it just to make you happy? I don't think that's what you meant, but that's essentially what was said.

"The magic is somewhere close, yet so far." I'll agree that it isn't totally back, especially with so many original performers missing. Did you get to see The Muppet Show Live last year at MuppetFest? That's the only time they've been able to recapture the magic exactly, in my mind. Friday night didn't completely recapture it, but I thought it worked on a lot of levels. Who knows? Maybe they'll get it right eventually, or maybe as your friend suggested, they'll just have to change. This is an almost entirely different group of performers, writers and directors now. They have to find their own rhythym and their own chemistry rather than just copying others, because that's what it will always seem like: just a copy.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter. Keep in mind I may be disagreeing with certain opinions of yours, but I don't mean this as an attack on you personally. Thanks again for honestly expressing your opinion and making this an interesting forum to come to!

Take care,