Why did MFS and EIG bomb so bad?

[LamangoNumber2]

Very true! Thing is, Jim had Muppet Show cancelled before it had a chance to go bad (as every TV show eventually does given enough time). He knew it wasn't how long something lasted, but how good it was. If it's not good, it shouldn't continue.

... Tell that to SouthPark, Family Guy, and other shows that went down the toilet and still keep going.

10 seasons is just fine. Mystery Science Theater did it...And they have more fans than Muppets, sadly.... Wonder if Jim watched it in 89-90....

It seems, after Jim died, people sorta...stopped careing. Some of the favorite Muppets went to silent, only finally being brought back.
Frank left, which I suppose is due to the depression of missing that bearded man standing next to him working the frog...
Richard Hunt died, tragicly.
Jerry Nelson left everyone except the Count.
Louise Gold is retired I beleive.

Come right down to it, Steve, Dave, and Carol, Kevin, Fran, and Marty are really the only people left from Jim Henson's days...

Maybe thats why they did so badly...Not enough of the classic humor.

 

[frogboy4]

... Tell that to SouthPark, Family Guy, and other shows that went down the toilet and still keep going.

10 seasons is just fine. Mystery Science Theater did it...And they have more fans than Muppets, sadly.... Wonder if Jim watched it in 89-90....

It seems, after Jim died, people sorta...stopped careing. Some of the favorite Muppets went to silent, only finally being brought back.
Frank left, which I suppose is due to the depression of missing that bearded man standing next to him working the frog...
Richard Hunt died, tragicly.
Jerry Nelson left everyone except the Count.
Louise Gold is retired I beleive.

Come right down to it, Steve, Dave, and Carol, Kevin, Fran, and Marty are really the only people left from Jim Henson's days...

Maybe thats why they did so badly...Not enough of the classic humor.

I always felt it went a little like this-

Frank already had one foot out the door in order to focus on his time-consuming and successful directing career before Jim died. Getting him back to do his characters even for the Henson Hour was a scheduling challenge. Having Jim gone didn't help him keep up with it as much as he likely would have.

Jerry was working hard with the Muppets for years after Jim's death until illness slowed him down.

Louise Gold is still working as a puppeteer on a UK television program with one of Muppet Central's long time members Warrick!

Jim was already getting away from just doing the Muppets before his death. He kind of wanted Disney to run the machine so that he could pop in and perform at his leisure. Disney ownership provided him with the perpetual green-light for whatever he wanted to do and without the pitching, and wrangling he always had to go through as head of the Henson Company.

All the performers are freelancers and have other duties and interests away from Muppeteering. When Henson or Muppet projects now get the green light some performers aren't always immediately available. Such is life.

The thing is, Jim always drove the "Muppet bus" and without the gang's leader things get crazy just as the Muppet gang does without Kermit. This current plan is good, but I hope Muppets Studio has or gets a consistent leader whether it's a producer or performer. Since he's gone, Henson Co can't seem to get the Dark Crystal sequel off the ground and have finally gotten around to reviving the Fraggles. Sesame Street’s puppet leadership under Kevin Clash has turned into the Elmo Show. Disney has finally discovered marketing possibilities in the Muppets to put a solid effort behind them.

_________

I always felt the Muppet Show didn't truly go off the air because there was nothing left to say. I always felt Jim wanted to say other things with other characters in other mediums. He had a billion ideas and just wanted to get as many made as he could. That's why I'm not so certain he'd nix the idea of a Muppet Show revival if around today. It's a great platform for experimentation. I still think he'd be doing so much on the web!

As for Family Guy and South Park. Well, the worst current episodes of Family Guy are still better than the worst season one episodes and the best eps are still very funny. It's got a lot of life left. South Park provides social commentary for current events in a way that isn't totally dated. Having new episodes on the air always makes sense to me. They might think of limiting the number to enhance quality.

 

[JJandJanice]

... Tell that to SouthPark, Family Guy, and other shows that went down the toilet and still keep going.

As for Family Guy and South Park. Well, the worst current episodes of Family Guy are still better than the worst season one episodes and the best eps are still very funny. It's got a lot of life left. South Park provides social commentary for current events in a way that isn't totally dated. Having new episodes on the air always makes sense to me. They might think of limiting the number to enhance quality.

Yeah that's what I was about to say.

Speaking as a huge South Park fan whom owns all season released so far, I couldn't disagree more with that statement by Lamangonumber2. Season two was, without question, the weakest season of South Park. I think South Park has become a much smarter show than it use to be. I think the whole Kenny having to die in each episode was getting really old. I know for a fact that Trey Parker and Matt Stone are much prouder of the newer episodes than anything from probably the first three seasons and they really should be.

As for Family Guy, well it's found a whole new fanbase as well as some of fans from the first couple seasons. I don't think Family as well written as a show as South Park, but it's good for the simple laugh and there's nothing wrong with that. Doesn't mean it should be taken off the air.

 

[LamangoNumber2]

Still, Ten seasons is enough. It worked for MST3K.

 

[JJandJanice]

Still, Ten seasons is enough. It worked for MST3K.

I disagree, I want South Park to stay on the air as long as it possibly can or as long as Trey Parker and Matt Stone keep the show fresh like they do.

South Park and Family Guy, whether or not you like it, still have life left, how come you didn't mention the Simpsons? In my opinion, it's still a funny show, but the heart has been gone.

 

[frogboy4]

I don't believe in setting arbitrary limits that come in round numbers. There are times that the Simpsons got tired and many felt it should be cancelled, but it gets better in waves and it is going strong. Tastefully bowing out is the best way to go, but if they still get a fan base and everyone making it still wants to continue then I have no problem with them continuing. I don't have to watch them. Shows going on for too long doesn't ruin the shine of their prime, just their finale. All in the Family lasted too long and it's considered one of the most classic programs in the history of television.

Back to the Muppet and Sesame films. Technically both MFS and EIG are considered box office bombs, but have had healthy sales on DVD. These could easily be the first Muppet/Sesame films to hit Blu-Ray seeing that they are both Sony releases (Sony owns Blu-Ray).

 

[CensoredAlso]

Technically both MFS and EIG are considered box office bombs, but have had healthy sales on DVD. These could easily be the first Muppet/Sesame films to hit Blu-Ray seeing that they are both Sony releases (Sony owns Blu-Ray).

That's probably true, and again I say it's a huge imbalance.

 

[minor muppetz]

Back to the Muppet and Sesame films. Technically both MFS and EIG are considered box office bombs, but have had healthy sales on DVD. These could easily be the first Muppet/Sesame films to hit Blu-Ray seeing that they are both Sony releases (Sony owns Blu-Ray).

Or The Muppets Take Manhattan could beat it (don't get me started on Kermit's Swamp Years).

 

[Drtooth]

Louise Gold is still working as a puppeteer on a UK television program with one of Muppet Central's long time members Warrick!

Dude... I TOTALLY need to know the name of that show!

Jim was already getting away from just doing the Muppets before his death. He kind of wanted Disney to run the machine so that he could pop in and perform at his leisure. Disney ownership provided him with the perpetual green-light for whatever he wanted to do and without the pitching, and wrangling he always had to go through as head of the Henson Company.

Honestly, I really feel he wanted to move the Muppets down for kids and focus on the grander creature shop projects. The proof is there with the Jim Henson Play-a-long Videos. Plus, there really weren't all that many Muppet projects directly after MTM... except for Muppet Babies.

The thing is, Jim always drove the "Muppet bus" and without the gang's leader things get crazy just as the Muppet gang does without Kermit. This current plan is good, but I hope Muppets Studio has or gets a consistent leader whether it's a producer or performer. Since he's gone, Henson Co can't seem to get the Dark Crystal sequel off the ground and have finally gotten around to reviving the Fraggles. Sesame Street’s puppet leadership under Kevin Clash has turned into the Elmo Show. Disney has finally discovered marketing possibilities in the Muppets to put a solid effort behind them.

When anyone passes on who creates something that immense, of course things will be off in direction, focus, and general vision is gone with them. At least for a while. Look how long it took Disney to get back on its feet without Walt. And even then, it bows to the pressure of being popular and staying in money while totally ignoring where it came from. I will say the House of Mouse, Mouseworks, and movies like the Three Musketeers are the best versions of Mickey I've ever seen. He's actually... interesting and has a personality.

I always felt the Muppet Show didn't truly go off the air because there was nothing left to say. I always felt Jim wanted to say other things with other characters in other mediums. He had a billion ideas and just wanted to get as many made as he could. That's why I'm not so certain he'd nix the idea of a Muppet Show revival if around today. It's a great platform for experimentation. I still think he'd be doing so much on the web!

Jim was a media nomad. He didn't like to root into one thing... he love to explore what he could do and push everything to the limit. I think he pulled the Muppet Show because he knew that pulling it after 5 seasons leaves you wanting more, without leaving you woefully unsatisfied. He didn't kill the characters then and there, he kept them. It's really different than being a TV show. Sure, you can cancel a show, make a couple spin offs with one or two characters... but it's still a TV show... or a movie based off a TV show. The way Jim treated them, the characters were doing a TV show and then they moved on to bigger and better things. They weren't characters... they became actors in their own right.

As for Family Guy and South Park. Well, the worst current episodes of Family Guy are still better than the worst season one episodes and the best eps are still very funny. It's got a lot of life left. South Park provides social commentary for current events in a way that isn't totally dated. Having new episodes on the air always makes sense to me. They might think of limiting the number to enhance quality.

As for Family Guy, well it's found a whole new fanbase as well as some of fans from the first couple seasons. I don't think Family as well written as a show as South Park, but it's good for the simple laugh and there's nothing wrong with that. Doesn't mean it should be taken off the air.

Off topic but I have to comment. I think Family Guy is going into the toilet because of the new audience that Jancie mentioned. Gamer slackers that love crummy internet movies and demand a laugh per second, no matter how clumsily placed they are. Plus, the dreaded adult swim influence. If you ever watched on of their tedious "look how adult we are! We have sex AND drug jokes, and we make fun of stuff from the 80's" shows, you know what I mean. They stole FG's jokes for one, making them less shocking, and more mundane.

South Park is always fresh because they always deal with current stuff... granted, the same manner of secret cults that control things... blah blah blah... but that Jonas Brothers episode proves that they know what's what.

 

[CensoredAlso]

You know the Muppet performers were always generally pretty anonymous, except for Jim and Frank. And I think at the time that was almost a strength, it made the characters more real to the audience. They didn't think about an actor, they thought about a real person (or frog).

But now I feel like the fact that they were anonymous has almost become a detriment. I mean if anyone wanted to reunite the Marx Brothers (when they were around of course), you couldn't have brought in a replacement for one of them. It would have been very obvious and audiences wouldn't have responded well. Even when the Brady Bunch reunited, fans noticed when one of the actors changed and felt disapointed. They wanted the real thing.

General audiences of Muppet movies don't realize when actors have been changed. But if they had been more familiar with the actors they'd know the newer movies just weren't of the same spirit. (Again no offence to the newer performers, it's just very difficult to recreate a familiar character)