Why did MFS and EIG bomb so bad?

[beaker]

It's the beginning of one - comic books, television specials (placed less than a year apart), puppet products, posers, figures, an updated web pressence, a greater theme park presence and those are the things already here now. Have you not seen any of this or are discounting it all because there's no theatrical film and weekly television program? Those items are a lot harder to put together these days and the Henson Company seems to be much worse at it than Disney.

The Dark Crystal and the Fraggle films have had so many false fits and starts. Henson is not equipped to handle the Muppet property as in Jim's day. And toward the end he really did want to sell the Muippets because the marketing was such a burden. I suppose that's the same way the Henson Company felt when they sold to Disney.

Things aren't perfect, but the cup is far past half-full. Still, with the past of being burned by empty promises there are some fans that will take a pessimistic stance and I get that. Disney is reportedly setting the stage so bigger projects will make financial sense. There's a reason why they're the big dog...er mouse. It's because they know what works. They also seem intent on keeping the Muppet's persona intact. Pitching the Muppet Show took a long time for Jim. With such a long time removed from popular culture Disney has a lot of work to do...and they've been doing it. Their old plans were half-baked with no real goal insight. I see that they're still building. You're just focusing on the hole and not the delicious Muppet donut. Mmmm...donuts.

I couldnt agree more. For my, and everyone else dogging the sell to Disney and the subsequent few years since...for the last couple years Ive had a real since that beginning in 2010(the 55 anniversary) we would begin to see a very large and tangible resurgence of the Muppets. Not just nostaglia products, but to show the world that the Muppets are as viable, current, relevant and hip as ever.

Patience they say, pays off.

 

[Drtooth]

What?

I want the Muppets to be around forever. For my children, my children's children, and their children's children.

The Muppets have been around since 1955, for 54 years now; and I see a very large resurgence ahead. Why would you want to see that derailed?

Exactly. Snowth... I usually agree with you, but I think that idea is the worst thing I have ever heard. Jim WANTED the show to go on. That's who Jim was. A show man that wanted a legacy. Sure, the projects made after he passed on weren't great and didn't hold up to the classics. Does that mean they should never strive to do anything better? After watching LTS, I clearly saw the ability to make them the classic Jim Era Muppets was not only possible, but achievable (the special, again, would have been better had they had a little more time both in air time and development).

To tie this back to the original topic, the reason why the latest muppet projects weren't all successful was that they were misguided projects to begin with. The idea of classic retellings featuring the muppets doesn't appeal to me (though, I like the job they're doing with the comics, using an all Muppet cast). MCC and MTi were good, but Oz was a bad idea to begin with. Muppets Tonight, even the writers and developing staff said they didn't know where the show was going until the last episode. The puppeteers are just as sharp as ever... and honestly, as much as I love Frank Oz, I'm glad that they let someone take on his characters so we don't have off chemistry with Steve's Kermit... or what happened with MFS, having Frank only do dubbing and voice loops. It's just their choice of projects as of late has been hit or miss.

No wonder why Disney was going at a snails pace with new projects. If they have another OZ, it could derail everything. Look at how hard it was to get them back on track after that fiasco. I still think they rushed it into production to say "This is what we plan for them." I'm actually glad "Next Top Muppet" didn't happen. The Muppets don't need to ride the reality TV train, satirical or not. I wish the mockumentary happened, though.

 

[LamangoNumber2]

Hold up...I don't care about anything in this thread as of yet...But a Muppet Halloween Special! ...Anyone else seeing the RETURN OF UNCLE DEADLY!

 

[frogboy4]

I couldnt agree more. For my, and everyone else dogging the sell to Disney and the subsequent few years since...for the last couple years Ive had a real since that beginning in 2010(the 55 anniversary) we would begin to see a very large and tangible resurgence of the Muppets. Not just nostaglia products, but to show the world that the Muppets are as viable, current, relevant and hip as ever.

Patience they say, pays off.

I want the Muppets to be around forever. For my children, my children's children, and their children's children.

The Muppets have been around since 1955, for 54 years now; and I see a very large resurgence ahead. Why would you want to see that derailed?

I had weird feelings about Disney ownership even in 1990, but I understand the reasoning. Since the official sale a few years ago Disney kind of expected the Muppets to take care of themselves without much support or direction, then they tinkered too much with the formula, then they made plans and dropped them, then they tried to make money off of them by releasing cheap versions of DVDs. But now there's an actual planned push. It's steady and it's working. The new launch is in training wheels right now. Not necessarily because the Muppets need it but because the public needs it in order to understand the brand. The Muppets are a unique property that doesn't rely on the cheap tactics that so many others do and I think Disney gets that.

I'd like to think you take anyone who isn't a Muppet fan yet (young or old) and plop them in front of a classic Muppet film and have them respond positively, but that's just not the way it works. The Muppets must be marketed. They must make people take notice to seek them out and enjoy all of their media. I think that's why it seems that the Muppets are underground. They're either seen as trying too hard to get attention or they seem like dusty artifacts going through the motions. They can be themselves and vital at the same time and Disney is figuring that out.

I reject the idea that the Muppets should just fade away into the golden memories that we have. The characters have always been about performance spontaneity and that was missing for a while. I think the Muppets should always be around. The fans that don't like the new stuff don't have to watch it, but I'm glad it there. Even the Studio DC stuff made me happy. Kermit, Janice, Gonzo and the gang were just saying hi and making new friends in a crucial demographic without pandering to them. Not my taste in a special, but I think it helped a little bit.

 

[theprawncracker]

Even the Studio DC stuff made me happy. Kermit, Janice, Gonzo and the gang were just saying hi and making new friends in a crucial demographic without pandering to them. Not my taste in a special, but I think it helped a little bit.

Agreed. I mean... even if it didn't help too much, it helped some. We know tons of kids turned out to watch the half-wit, no-talent stars turn out to play along with Kermit, Gonzo, Piggy, The Mayhem, Fozzie, and even Chef, Beaker, and Scooter. So... even if the specials weren't top notch, Disney's biggest demographic did get a taste of what the Muppets can do. Sing, dance, and make people happy. All while being goofy, irreverant, and all around fun-fun silly-willy!

 

[JJandJanice]

I agree Disney has been doing pretty well with the Muppets and why retire them. Like it's already been mention Jim wouldn't have wanted that.

 

[CensoredAlso]

I want the Muppets to be around forever. For my children, my children's children, and their children's children.

Definitely! Thing is for me, I don't need new projects for that to happen.

Again, not that I don't appreciate the efforts being made now. But the Muppets as they were will always stand alone for me.

 

[Drtooth]

I had weird feelings about Disney ownership even in 1990, but I understand the reasoning. Since the official sale a few years ago Disney kind of expected the Muppets to take care of themselves without much support or direction, then they tinkered too much with the formula, then they made plans and dropped them, then they tried to make money off of them by releasing cheap versions of DVDs. But now there's an actual planned push. It's steady and it's working. The new launch is in training wheels right now. Not necessarily because the Muppets need it but because the public needs it in order to understand the brand. The Muppets are a unique property that doesn't rely on the cheap tactics that so many others do and I think Disney gets that.

I still blame Oz for that one. They really picked a bad project to gauge the success of the property. I don't blame Disney for it being a terrible product that was an misguided project from the beginning. I swear there was some pressure to finish the project as soon as possible from them, and the aiming at all the focus groups besides the fans coming from them though. But all and all Disney, for all the heat I used to give it, is doing a good, if extremely cautious job with them.

Much better than how Warners Handled the Looney Tunes, and they actually OWNED them. And this ties into my point. Be careful what projects you use to gauge the success of a relaunch. WB put a lot into Looney Tunes Back in Action being a massive relaunch... they had a great Duck Dodgers cartoon running on CN at the time. But the film tanked, it suffered too much focus on the new live action characters, and all these great plans they had for the property were dissolved. To think, we could have gotten a series of Daffy Duck cartoons... but instead, they fiddled around and came up with that attrocious Loonatics show, and you can barely even find a Taz T-shirt now... something you couldn't punt a football without hitting one just 10 years earlier.

I can't blame them for being so slow here. I still wish they used a better more developed script that was floating around, instead of another classic retelling.

 

[BobThePizzaBoy]

Much better than how Warners Handled the Looney Tunes, and they actually OWNED them. And this ties into my point. Be careful what projects you use to gauge the success of a relaunch. WB put a lot into Looney Tunes Back in Action being a massive relaunch... they had a great Duck Dodgers cartoon running on CN at the time. But the film tanked, it suffered too much focus on the new live action characters, and all these great plans they had for the property were dissolved. To think, we could have gotten a series of Daffy Duck cartoons... but instead, they fiddled around and came up with that attrocious Loonatics show, and you can barely even find a Taz T-shirt now... something you couldn't punt a football without hitting one just 10 years earlier.

Gotta halt the thread to ramble about this same subject.

YES! I am so disappointed the Looney Tunes have fallen off the face of the earth thanks to Looney Tunes: Back in Action (a film that, as mediocre as it is, should have gotten better care at the box-office). As mentioned in the thread before, I was getting back into Looney Tunes after outgrowing VeggieTales and I was through the roof in hype, but I was the only one. It's too bad, I really do want to see the characters back in the limelight with shirts and shorts before movies (as bad as this is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixipQO05UyE I'd still probably go to the theater to see a movie just for it).

Sorry, had to get that out. Back to Disney and the Muppets.

 

[Drtooth]

YES! I am so disappointed the Looney Tunes have fallen off the face of the earth thanks to Looney Tunes: Back in Action (a film that, as mediocre as it is, should have gotten better care at the box-office). As mentioned in the thread before, I was getting back into Looney Tunes after outgrowing VeggieTales and I was through the roof in hype, but I was the only one. It's too bad, I really do want to see the characters back in the limelight with shirts and shorts before movies (as bad as this is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixipQO05UyE I'd still probably go to the theater to see a movie just for it).

Honestly, I liked the movie, though it had the SAME problem Rocky and Bullwinkle had... adding random humans getting in the way of the toons. At least LT BIA did it in a more structured manner. R&B had some script doctor or idiot producer or market group bull that said they needed a strong female role model... e.i. a Mary Sue with no personality, shoved into the picture.

You can't let the success of ONE project hinge on the success of a franchise. A BAD project will kill it, as Batman and Robin proved. Look how long it took them to get back on track with that one. Which brings me back to Oz, and the hit or miss projects we've had of late. I bet a lot at Henson was hinging on how successful MFS was, while Sony just didn't seem to care (see, we're back to our original message). Somehow someone at Sony saw "Muppets From Space" as "Sesame Street Presents Muppets... SPACE." I blame Henson for the director, though, but I already went through that.

However with SS, it didn't matter that EIG bombed. SS was still growing and thriving at the time... still is... and they didn't need a big project to state or re-enforce anything. The Muppets however, they need big projects to get their feet back into being a major focus again. Thankfully, not too long after MFS we got KSY and VMX almost within a year of each other. While Oz was only a couple years after, it seemed nothing was going to happen after it, until LTS came around.

I know I keep stating Oz, but I feel that's a sore point for fans. About that time, the Palisades line ended (were the runomrs of them pulling series 10 to make Oz figures that were delayed, ending the line true?), Disney sharply ended the Kermit's World Tour just after... and all the scripts that were floating around, better structured ones, ones to be made after VMX, were ignored for another classic retelling, instead of ones where they play themselves.... and that I feel Disney wanted it to be a bigger success to launch the brand.