Why did MFS and EIG bomb so bad?

[dwayne1115]

Wow I'm not going to quote you Drthooth, but I see what your saying. However I really do think Disney is on the right track right now.

 

[Drtooth]

Wow I'm not going to quote you Drthooth, but I see what your saying. However I really do think Disney is on the right track right now.

Honestly, it took Disney forever to even get Mickey and Goofy (et al) in the spotlight again, where they belong. And we have the security of saying that Kermit and company won't come back as yet another Blue's Clues model talk down to kids kiddy show.

Oh.... and for the record, I AM seeing Looney Tunes shirts again. YIPPEE!

 

[CensoredAlso]

Jim WANTED the show to go on. That's who Jim was.

Very true! Thing is, Jim had Muppet Show cancelled before it had a chance to go bad (as every TV show eventually does given enough time). He knew it wasn't how long something lasted, but how good it was. If it's not good, it shouldn't continue.

And just because something retires, doesn't mean it has no legacy. The things that were good about something should continue and do continue, even if it's from the past.

 

[frogboy4]

Jim had plans for the Muppets. He wanted them to have a future - especially with Disney. The only point of conflict was Eisner and he's gone now. Jim really seemed to want the characters active even after him.

I can't speak for what Jim Henson wanted, but the model of what came under him is the best point of reference. One thing for certain, he liked Muppets in theatrical films to be moving, not mostly static like in MFS. TMM was a traveling film, GMC they traveled to the UK and back again, MTM the Muppets went to NY only to travel across the country to find jobs and back again. I know he wanted to do MCC (even though that is a static film). MTI seems very Jim-like in the adventure sense. MTI is the film that sticks out like a sore thumb. One would expect the characters to actually travel through space for a good portion of the film. I still blame the Tim Hill direction for the mundane quality of MFS. Those everyday shots are interesting when juxtaposed to something spectacular. That's the Muppety way of things.

So, that's kind of my guide post. The whole reason for the Muppets in film is to do things on a grander scale in real life and not just a sound stage. Aside from a few pick-up shots, MFS seemed really canned. Not to belabor the point. MFS plays like a TV special and not a movie. Had it been conceived as a TV special I might have found it more palatable.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Jim had plans for the Muppets. He wanted them to have a future - especially with Disney. The only point of conflict was Eisner and he's gone now. Jim really seemed to want the characters active even after him.

Oh definitely, I'm sure he did want them to stay active. I'm just saying he didn't want Muppet Show to still be on the air if it turned bad. He pulled Little Muppet Monster after three episodes because he thought it wasn't up to standard. He wanted the Muppets to continue, but by the same standards he had set.

And again, there are so many classic actors and teams and artists who eventually stopped making movies or music. It doesn't mean they have no legacy or future, as long as people keep listening to the work they already did.

 

[frogboy4]

Oh definitely, I'm sure he did want them to stay active. I'm just saying he didn't want Muppet Show to still be on the air if it turned bad. He pulled Little Muppet Monster after three episodes because he thought it wasn't up to standard. He wanted the Muppets to continue, but by the same standards he had set.

And again, there are so many classic actors and teams and artists who eventually stopped making movies or music. It doesn't mean they have no legacy or future, as long as people keep listening to the work they already did.

I was thinking about Little Muppet Monsters' cancellation by Jim as pertains to MFS. If LMM, a show I actually liked, didn't meet his standards, then MFS wouldn't likely have either. The Muppets are still vital as seen on Muppet.com. Once that can be harnessed into a full-length film Disney and the Muppets will have lightning in a bottle.

I’m content to let good things go untainted and end production, but I don’t ever see the Muppets being ready for the ice flow. More characters can be created, the main cast torch should be passed when it is time and the Muppets will evolve in the ways they need to while keeping true to their roots. I can see that happening. It seems like a fine line, but I don’t really see it that way.

The Magic Muppet Film Formula:
Original Musical Numbers
Various Outdoor and Soundstage Locations
Good Mixture of Cameos
The Importance of Togetherness & Diversity Moral
Quality Comedy (Not Taken from the Garbage Bin)
A Story that Moves Right Along

 

[CensoredAlso]

I was thinking about Little Muppet Monsters' cancellation by Jim as pertains to MFS. If LMM, a show I actually liked, didn't meet his standards, then MFS wouldn't likely have either.

Very true, I mean I thought some of LMM was rather charming. True it had some problems, but perhaps they could have been ironed out with time. But Jim of course though was a perfectionist and didn't want his work to be anything less than that, which I understand.

More characters can be created, the main cast torch should be passed when it is time and the Muppets will evolve in the ways they need to while keeping true to their roots. I can see that happening. It seems like a fine line, but I don’t really see it that way.

Sometimes I actually wonder how it would have worked out if, after Jim's passing, if they had completely gone in another direction with new characters and situations etc. I mean part of what made the original characters work was their performers' chemistry together. Something very difficult for anyone else to replicate, simply because we're all different and individuals.

 

[Drtooth]

I was thinking about Little Muppet Monsters' cancellation by Jim as pertains to MFS. If LMM, a show I actually liked, didn't meet his standards, then MFS wouldn't likely have either.

Of course, had Jim been around, we probably would have had a much better choice of director, if not himself. I really feel he should have let LMM run its course for the season, and see how everyone else accepted it as an audience. I actually like what they were trying to do in the 3 episodes I saw. However, I can't help think they did it much, much better with Dog City (Nelvana certainly had better animation- and no Language barrier with them).

The Magic Muppet Film Formula:
Original Musical Numbers
Various Outdoor and Soundstage Locations
Good Mixture of Cameos
The Importance of Togetherness & Diversity Moral
Quality Comedy (Not Taken from the Garbage Bin)
A Story that Moves Right Along

Even FTB followed that one. Especially how they were on a journey around the country to find Big Bird. Even EIG had a sort of journey in the film. That's the problem with MFS, as you stated. Mundane looking, cutting out some of the best jokes and gags that Joey pushed for (the ending especially), and using a soundtrack that relied on 1970's funk... which I like, but didn't fit at all. it seemed like the Muppets were doing someone else's movie... the only thing I really think it has over MCC and MTi is that the characters at least play themselves.

Frankly, I like MFS more than MCC for the reason you all know now, since I've said it multiple times. The Muppets really fgelt like secondary characters, and I think there was a lot of focus, too much, on the human actors. I almost wonder what the film had been like if Richard Hunt was around when they made it. I really think Scooter would have been a great Fred. But there was no chance of that happening.

 

[ferrell]

Eig

just take a look at the 1-3*'s reviews for EIG on amazon and I think you'll get a basic idea why parents hate it so much..mostly they complain about it making their kid cry or that it scared their kids or it was simply boring or that they (the parent) hated elmo and think he's annoying...lol..Elmo seems to be one of those home video type things where the parents put the tape on as a babysitter but they don't really want to watch it themselves..hence the reason for the movie bombing at the theater but the video doing somewhat better...

 

[Drtooth]

just take a look at the 1-3*'s reviews for EIG on amazon and I think you'll get a basic idea why parents hate it so much..mostly they complain about it making their kid cry or that it scared their kids or it was simply boring or that they (the parent) hated elmo and think he's annoying...lol..Elmo seems to be one of those home video type things where the parents put the tape on as a babysitter but they don't really want to watch it themselves..hence the reason for the movie bombing at the theater but the video doing somewhat better...

That's the general problem. When you make a movie geared at preschoolers, that means you have to take preschoolers to the theater.... something I don't think any parent should do. And if they're that restless at home, on video, where it can be watched in parts and there are no distractions to the audience, what makes them think it will work in public.

Of course, we have to also discount the fact those amazon reviews are ALWAYS based on people who buy anything and everything with the Sesame Street logo slapped on it to give their under 2 year old a babysitter. You find the DUMBEST reviews there. I never got around to archiving them, but these are people who have little knowledge of the show and it's history, and just whine that there's not enough Elmo to keep their 1 year old happy, and how dated the material is (in the case of older, unreleased to DVD video tapes... which makes me say... really... REALLY? Something on a VHS tape copyrighted 1987 is not current enough for a 1 year old.... REALLY?)