The Bible and Love and Christians

[dwmckim]

However, "homosexuality" is the technical term and it is the term used in The Bible

Actually it's not.

I've tended to hold my tongue about this point only because it's been over a decade and a half since i've studied this and don't like to be a teacher about something where the finer details to where i can present this with more specifics are faded from my memory, but once i read that sentence, i couldn't keep silent on this point any longer.

When you see a Bible that uses the word "homosexual" in it, know that it's a horribly faulty and inacurrate translation. If one studies the original texts/language, the words that were used in those passages were words that described very specific cultural practices/rituals which existed at that time which don't really have any modern counterparts. Depending on which version/translation of the Bible you own, you may see any number of different words used instead - in some you'll see the offensively sloppy "homosexual", in others you'll see things more along the lines of "sexual deviants", "abusers", or terms that are far more general and not implying a particular sexual orientation. Granted, older generations with their lack of knowledge of the nature of homosexuality can be given more of a pass for the poor translations. But today, there are enough religious leaders who should *know* better, who do know better but don't bother making the necessary corrections since antigay bigotry remains a huge method of bringing in mass funds to collection plates and donation envelopes. It's an absolute crime how many religious leaders know this and ignore it when the misuse of these passages cause some of the biggest wars and abuse of our fellow men for no legitimate reason today.

The passages used to condemn gays when one goes back and looks at the original meanings were about various acts that don't really have anything to do with homosexuality by itself and most certainly absolutely NOTHING at all to do with two committed same-sex partners who have nothing but love and respect for each other in their words, deeds, and actions! And so many people are brought up believing it to be true just as naturally as we're taught that grass is green.

Like i say, if i was posting this 15 years ago, i could talk about this far more intelligently with very specific examples but perhaps that might not be so bad as there are a very healthy number of books, workshops/classes, and other resources on the subject that are definately worth seeking out and i would strongly reccomend taking the time to take advantage of them on one's own.

 

[TheMonsterAteMe]

My friend Brooke said this.. I find it relevant.

"I think if people honestly believe homosexuality is a sin because of their religious beliefs, not allowing gay marriage isn’t the way to stop the sin. It just makes people angry and bitter toward Christians. If God saw fit to allow free will, then why can’t Christians? If you want to change people, act as you are called to by Jesus. If you think my way of life is wrong, don’t yell and stip away my rights. Show me through love. Convince me that you really do have the answer. Show me something that no law can. That’s just how I feel."

I would love to talk about this on Facebook or my blog! Add me or follow! I love discussing this one on one!
http://jonathanlikespotatoes.tumblr.com
http://www.facebook.com/jonathan.lewis2

 

[CensoredAlso]

If you want to change people, act as you are called to by Jesus.

Definitely, I think this is true for pretty much all issues that divide people. And it's not even really about changing people (next to impossible in any situation, heh), it's about making a connection with people you disagree with so you don't see each other as just "the enemy."

 

[GonzoLeaper]

When you see a Bible that uses the word "homosexual" in it, know that it's a horribly faulty and inacurrate translation. If one studies the original texts/language, the words that were used in those passages were words that described very specific cultural practices/rituals which existed at that time which don't really have any modern counterparts.

Well, first of all, The Bible's accuracy is maintained by God Himself, so I would not call any translation of The Holy Bible (outside of the Watchtower version and other edited versions from cults) to be faulty or inaccurate.
The Bible is what it is- it's God Word, whether people agree with it or not.
The NIV translation (1984) of 1 Corinthians 6:9 uses the word "homosexual offenders" in a list describing what some Christians were before coming to know Christ.
9 "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)
I love to read those verse together because the Good News is that no matter what sins you've done and no matter if you've fallen into one of those categories at times (and I know I have at times)- for those who know Christ, it's all in the past! The Lord Jesus Christ washed, sanctified and justified me through His death and Resurrection! It's my faith in the cleansing work He did that saves me. Ephesians 2:8-9 says it's by grace alone through Jesus- and nothing that I've done. Because I don't deserve it- I've done nothing to deserve salvation. "But God demonstrates His love in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8) That's a powerful description of God's love for us.

Granted, older generations with their lack of knowledge of the nature of homosexuality can be given more of a pass for the poor translations. But today, there are enough religious leaders who should *know* better, who do know better but don't bother making the necessary corrections since antigay bigotry remains a huge method of bringing in mass funds to collection plates and donation envelopes. It's an absolute crime how many religious leaders know this and ignore it when the misuse of these passages cause some of the biggest wars and abuse of our fellow men for no legitimate reason today.

The passages used to condemn gays when one goes back and looks at the original meanings were about various acts that don't really have anything to do with homosexuality by itself and most certainly absolutely NOTHING at all to do with two committed same-sex partners who have nothing but love and respect for each other in their words, deeds, and actions! And so many people are brought up believing it to be true just as naturally as we're taught that grass is green.

I just have to be honest referring to collection plates at church. My church makes it clear that everyone should give willingly out of obedience to God- not under any compulsion or pressure. Perhaps some churches do- but they shouldn't. God commands against that as well. (see 2 Corinthians 9:6-8)
There is no passage in The Bible that condemns gays. Jesus Himself said He didn't come to condemn the world but to save the world. (John 3:17) What The Bible condemns is homosexuality- the noun, the act of lying with a man as one lies with a woman. (and vice versa for women.) However, as I tried to explain in my previous post, some people align and identify themselves with this sinful sexual act so that it defines their whole identity. Nonetheless, God created man to be with woman and to be fruitful together in the bonds of holy matrimony.
I do feel some people struggle with homosexuality more so than others, but it's still a choice on whether to obey God or not.
Both Leviticus 18:22 and Romans 1 make it clear that homosexuality is a sin. Romans 1:26-27 clearly addresses the shameful lusts of homosexuality as a lifestyle and makes it clear that it is a perversion and a sin.
It also says that God gave people over to these shameful lusts and unnatural relations. Thus, He allowed people to do what they had chosen to do even though they knew it was wrong. "For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
(Romans 1:21-25)
It seems pretty clear to me. Of course, The Bible also says that "the man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14) So people need to know Christ and have The Holy Spirit open their eyes to the truth of The Bible.
I know that folks out there have heard this and choose to disagree and that's their choice. But this is what God's Word says, whether people want to acknowledge it and obey it or not.

If you want to change people, act as you are called to by Jesus.

Definitely, I think this is true for pretty much all issues that divide people. And it's not even really about changing people (next to impossible in any situation, heh), it's about making a connection with people you disagree with so you don't see each other as just "the enemy."

Amen! I like that quote- very nice. I understand what they were saying, but I think I might amend it with- Show people the love of Jesus and let Him change them.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Amen! I like that quote- very nice. I understand what they were saying, but I think I might amend it with- Show people the love of Jesus and let Him change them.

I think the idea is that when it comes to any touchy issue, don't always just bombard people with facts or opinions; that's just going to put people on the defensive. Instead just be a friend in regular, real life situations and they'll see what you're really about.

And that goes for both sides of this particular issue. It's not about convincing people with facts and opinions, that doesn't happen that often in life! But people are influenced by the decent actions of other people.

 

[GonzoLeaper]

I kind of see Leaper's brand of witnessing as a forceful imposition rather than the thoughtful way other Christians in my life live and share by ingrained example.

Again, there are a number of things in the last few posts I could go back and address, but let me just say this then.
I believe that Jesus made it clear Christians are to go into all the world and preach the Gospel (Matthew 28:18-20). So I'm sorry if my last few posts have come off as sermons.
And honestly, I don't want to deny anyone their rights. However, I can't ordain a gay marriage as it doesn't fit the definition of marriage- a union between a man and a woman.
But that decision is up to the government and not me- I can't say I would want to see it happen, but if the government decides to do so, that is their call.
And I do believe in respecting the institutions that God has put in place (Romans 13) even if I don't agree with all their decisions. (Though if it comes down to obeying the government or obeying God, I must obey God rather than men.)
But as I've said before- everyone is free to make their own decisions. I've stated what I believe as a Christian and what Jesus has said in His Word. Everyone is free to make their own decisions about what to do with it.
Of course, to reference heralde's last post- it's rather hard when we're posting anonymously on a forum to be personable to a degree- since we can't have that close in person friendship. I do believe in showing the love of Jesus to people and I am sorry if that hasn't been evident with my last few posts. And honestly I think it's a little unfair to judge what my "brand of witnessing" is without knowing how I treat people in real life. And again- that's not to say that I'm perfect or anything because I know I mess up and need to do better- and I know I can't do better on my own and I need Christ to keep working on me and make me more like Him.
But that is one thing that makes the Internet tricky- not having the opportunity to see facial expressions and tone of voice and so forth. And not being able to see whether someone really lives out The Gospel or not.
I understand the semantics of what's being said about word usage, but I can't see it as loving to not explain what The Bible says about such things, whether anyone else agrees with it or not- when the implications are eternity especially.
But I've already stated that and as some have made clear, they do not desire to hear it again- so I will leave it at that. All I can say is that God loves everyone and because of His love, I love everyone too and trust that we will all truly know His love.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Of course, to reference heralde's last post- it's rather hard when we're posting anonymously on a forum to be personable to a degree- since we can't have that close in person friendship. I do believe in showing the love of Jesus to people and I am sorry if that hasn't been evident with my last few posts. And honestly I think it's a little unfair to judge what my "brand of witnessing" is without knowing how I treat people in real life.

You're right, it is very different online. And I apologize if it looked like I was singling you or any one person out, that wasn't my intention.

 

[frogboy4]

I do believe in showing the love of Jesus to people and I am sorry if that hasn't been evident with my last few posts. And honestly I think it's a little unfair to judge what my "brand of witnessing" is without knowing how I treat people in real life. And again- that's not to say that I'm perfect or anything because I know I mess up and need to do better- and I know I can't do better on my own and I need Christ to keep working on me and make me more like Him....Well, first of all, The Bible's accuracy is maintained by God Himself, so I would not call any translation of The Holy Bible (outside of the Watchtower version and other edited versions from cults) to be faulty or inaccurate.
The Bible is what it is- it's God Word, whether people agree with it or not.
The NIV translation (1984) of 1 Corinthians 6:9 uses the word "homosexual offenders" in a list describing what some Christians were before coming to know Christ.
9 "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were...

Ick, ick ick! It's insensitive, hard-line, half-baked posts like this that completely turn-off most non-Christian folk I know. Just sayin'. It aint witnessing or sharing the word - it's making yourself feel superior while preaching to the choir and I think a person, especially a "Christian witness" can be held to task for the insensitive words they use no matter if their spoken, typed or written in crayon. Wow! If there is an afterlife I want to go to the place where this sort of condescending hate-speech masquerading as religion does not exist. If that means a hotter climate then, "I'll trade with anyone who has a Jacuzzi!"

Personally, I don't assign any part of my life to Biblical text because I believe it to be a "stacked deck" reflecting a very limited perspective and that perspective has a lot of funky statements about a lot of things in both testaments! But my rejection of the Bible is not a rejection of Christians or being happy for them and supporting their lives as Christians to the fullest - - as long as they don't use their religion to tread on me!

 

[CensoredAlso]

Personally, I don't assign any part of my life to Biblical text because I believe it to be a "stacked deck" reflecting a very limited perspective and that perspective has a lot of funky statements about a lot of things in both testaments! But my rejection of the Bible is not a rejection of Christians or being happy for them and supporting their lives as Christians to the fullest - - as long as they don't use their religion to tread on me!

Just wanted to ask, did you see my post on how the Bible's passages on homosexuality have been potentially misinterpreted?

 

[frogboy4]

Just wanted to ask, did you see my post on how the Bible's passages on homosexuality have been potentially misinterpreted?

Yes I did and I appreciate that very much. Still, the Bible has a lot of strange or ambiguous passages that require much explanation and investigation. I used to do just that and always felt unsatisfied and decided that it's just not for me. Again, that doesn't mean I flipped through a Bible and dismissed it. I actually read many reference books and deciphered much text line by line the first two decades of my life until rendering it completely useless to me.

I just always find it odd that many Christians feel a need to over-share and enforce their beliefs on my life the same way that many non-Christians feel that all religion should be eradicated. I wish we could all practice a mutual respect. My contempt is not for Christians - -whether they think I'm going to a blazing pit or not. My objection is to the heavy-handed tactics used by Leaper's brand of relentless witnessing that does not allow for true mutual respect. Anyone non-Christian is inherently wrong and must be worn-down by constant reminders that we're unrepentant sinners. Of course, this is not because a particular Christian witness says so; rather it's because God says so and it must be repeated ad nauseum until we finally accept it. I tend to call this Stepford or Body-Snatcher method. It's creepy and not what most of my Christian friends are all about. I think Christians should be able to live open and proud and that gay married couples should too, but from one side it often seems like an either/or position.

Incidentally, my age, location, sex, name and many other items are listed here at MC in a transparent way that many "Christian witnesses" on the forum conceal. Maybe this is for privacy purposes, but it doesn't lend much credibility to faceless posts from individuals especially when much of their message is inflammatory.

I'm a passionate person and my beliefs are important to me just as they are to anyone else, but particular zealots attempt to de-legitimize gays so that it's okay to deprive civil rights and that's just plain wrong. That's the part of the Bible and Leaper antics that I find objectionable.

Also, in the news - Target stores were under fire last year for funding a political action committee affiliated with rabidly anti-gay causes that encouraged violence and the killing of gays under Biblical teaching. Of course this is a perversion of text, but nonetheless Target supported this Christian hate group because it also looked out for their conservative monetary interests. In comes Lady Gaga who wants to rehabilitate their image and release an exclusive Target single of her "Born That Way" song if they cease funding social politics and give to a wide variety of charities instead. They went back on that arrangement and Gaga pulled the plug. All this would seem uninteresting if not for the fact that next year San Francisco gets its first Target in the central downtown area and frog knows we'll protest something just because it's a Tuesday! This city already hates chain stores, so I cannot understand why they'd jeopardize their standing with us at such a crucial time of expansion. Maybe they'll try to make it right in 2012 when it finally opens. All just very weird. But it goes to show that enforcement of social politics on others does hurt real people in many ways.

(By the way, not a fan of the Gaga song. Too preachy and talks about God too much for my taste. Plus I liked it better as Madonna's Express Yourself.)