The Bible and Love and Christians

[frogboy4]

I want to point out though that people who identify themselves as Christians make up an overwhelmingly huge part of the country's population. So it's not unusual that you'd tend to see Christians speaking up more about any topic, never mind this particular issue. I'm not saying that makes them right in this case, just pointing out it's partially a numbers game. In other countries, sadly, you would have other very vocal religions objecting to gay marriage (in fact objecting to gays being able to live, period).



They don't see it that way. They don't see it as taking away rights. You're going to find in life that the many truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

Just in the same way that I'm sure there are people who don't believe it bigoted to deny interracial couples the right to marry.
You could call that a matter of perspective as well. Still doesn't make it anything other than prejudice. It's changing and homophobic legislation won't stand for much longer so I'm not worried. The vocal anti-gay marriage people now are going to be seen as the embarrassingly bigoted elderly family members in the future.

I don't think we should factor in the prejudice of countries that sanction the stoning of rape victims to justify the deprivation of civil rights over here. America prides itself on freedom so pointing out oppression in other oppressive cultures is moot.

On another note previously touched upon...there's rampant racism involving interracial couples by a of Christians and a lot of gays too. A cop once stopped my date and me walking down a San Francisco street several years ago because my fellow was black. I've also received rotten looks from other gays when out with a middle-eastern suitor. I just don't see why we can't all keep our meddling, judgmental hands to ourselves.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Just in the same way that I'm sure there are people who don't believe it bigoted to deny interracial couples the right to marry. You could call that a matter of perspective as well. Still doesn't make it anything other than prejudice.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not trying to say it's not prejudice. I'm trying to say these people who disagree with you aren't just evil and just love taking your rights away. I'm talking about "meeting your friend in your enemy." You're never going to convince people of anything if you don't understand them.

I don't think we should factor in the prejudice of countries that sanction the stoning of rape victims to justify the deprivation of civil rights over here.

I was not justifying anything of the sort.

Again I think you're assuming my motivations here.

 

[frogboy4]

I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not trying to say it's not prejudice. I'm trying to say these people who disagree with you aren't just evil and just love taking your rights away. I'm talking about "meeting your friend in your enemy." You're never going to convince people of anything if you don't understand them.



I was not justifying anything of the sort.

Again I think you're misunderstanding my motivations here.

Even prejudice people have the right to hold their beliefs. I understand very well where the ideas come from and it's not my intention to convince anyone of anything. However, no one should be permitted to legislate limited rights due to religious purposes no matter if they worship God, Mohamed, the Devil or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

There is no justification in bad behavior by pointing to worse behavior and saying, "At least you've got it better than that!"

 

[CensoredAlso]

Even prejudice people have the right to hold their beliefs.

I actually don't agree with that. I understand you're trying to be tolerant. But you're fighting for a change in the law and in society, aren't you? If you want to take a stand on an issue, sometimes you can't be tolerant.

I'm not talking about violence obviously. Just saying there's a time and a place for intolerance.

There is no justification in bad behavior by pointing to worse behavior and saying, "At least you've got it better than that!"

I'm sorry but you misunderstood me. I was saying that while Christianity is guilty of these things, it shouldn't be taking all the blame as though they're the only ones who feel this way. Period. No justification.

 

[frogboy4]

I actually don't agree with that. I understand you're trying to be tolerant. But you're fighting for a change in the law and in society, aren't you? If you want to take a stand on an issue, sometimes you can't be tolerant.

I'm not talking about violence obviously. I'm just saying you can change laws all you want, but you also need the support of the people.

Nope. I don't care what the public perception is as long as I have equal rights, protections and freedoms under the law. That's it. Nail on the head. Maybe that perception of legitimacy and changing the hearts and minds of anti-gay people is important for some folk, but anyone who knows me knows that my self-esteem is healthy enough! It would be nice for everybody to think well of me, but I can't control that so they can kiss my shiny butt. Just give my buddies and me our rights. The rest will probably work itself out in time.

I'm sorry but you misunderstood me. I was saying that while Christianity is guilty of these things, it shouldn't be taking all the blame as though they're the only ones who feel this way. Period. No justification.

I get you, but in America (where I live) the anti-gay movement is primarily being led by Christians. I think Christians have a duty to define themselves no matter what any other group is doing. How gays are treated by Iraqi Muslims doesn't count for much when talking gay marriage in the United States.

 

[CensoredAlso]

I get you, but in America (where I live) the anti-gay movement is primarily being led by Christians. I think Christians have a duty to define themselves no matter what any other group is doing.

Well again, what I'm saying is it's a numbers game. There's a great majority of Christians (or people who identify themselves that way) in the country, therefore the odds are in the favor that you're going to see mostly Christians doing these things. If you went to another country, there would just be another religion, but the same old story. That's what I trying to say. It's my fault if that wasn't clear earlier.

Maybe that perception of legitimacy and changing the hearts and minds of anti-gay people is important for some folk, but anyone who knows me knows that my self-esteem is healthy enough!....The rest will probably work itself out in time.

Well I wasn't talking about legitimacy exactly. I'm saying there is a time for tolerance, and there then are times when we all need to take a stand on an issue and say, "You know what? I am intolerant of your intolerance!"

Just saying, to everything there is a season, turn, turn, turn.

 

[frogboy4]

Well again, what I'm saying is it's a numbers game. There's a great majority of Christians (or people who identify themselves that way) in the country, therefore the odds are in the favor that you're going to see mostly Christians doing these things. If you went to another country, there would just be another religion, but the same old story. That's what I trying to say. It's my fault if that wasn't clear earlier.



Well I wasn't talking about legitimacy exactly. I'm saying there is a time for tolerance, and there then are times when we all need to take a stand on an issue and say, "You know what? I am intolerant of your intolerance!"

Just saying, to everything there is a season, turn, turn, turn.

That makes some sense, but I feel gay men and women already are tolerant of so very much out of necessity. That's never recognized because we are one of the last living scapegoats for the ills of others so we're taught to keep our heads down and just suffer through it. That somehow we deserve the stuff that's thrown at us. We do get of the worst of prejudice and even many of our families turn their back on us too. We develop a thick skin.

 

[CensoredAlso]

That makes some sense, but I feel gay men and women already are tolerant of so very much out of necessity. That's never recognized because we are one of the last living scapegoats for the ills of others so we're taught to keep our heads down and just suffer through it. That somehow we deserve the stuff that's thrown at us. We do get of the worst of prejudice and even many of our families turn their back on us too. We develop a thick skin.

I understand. Still, if you think that's bad, try being a woman, gay or straight, heh. You know John Lennon's song (the one whose title I can't repeat here. ).

 

[frogboy4]

I understand. Still, if you think that's bad, try being a woman, gay or straight, heh. You know John Lennon's song (the one whose title I can't repeat here. ).

LOL! Yes. I'm lucky to be a white male in America. I can't dance worth spit, but I have an easier time of many other things. Yes, I realize how un-pc that was!

 

[CensoredAlso]

LOL! Yes. I'm lucky to be a white male in America. I can't dance worth spit, but I have an easier time of many other things. Yes, I realize how un-pc that was!

Lol, yay we win!

Er, sorry...I...didn't mean that. Lol