The Bible and Love and Christians

[CensoredAlso]

As a Star Wars fan, I just had to point this out. The Canaanite city of Endor actually is mentioned in The Bible!

Oh my gosh, you're right, lol. Wow, how did they forget to teach us that in school, that is awesome!

 

[GonzoLeaper]

Originally Posted by frogboy4
I can understand that you might feel weird using the term "gay" or "LGBT", but it's clear that the most vocally pious talking heads on television largely focus-in on the term "homosexuality" to insinuate our relationships are based on carnal pleasures and rob their legitimacy or fullness. Stating otherwise is either ignorant of the reality or intellectually dishonest.

I don't deny that that is some people's motivation. Just saying it's not always that simple. I'm neither ignorant nor dishonest (again, you can't assume someone's motivation ).

Hmm- that is an interesting way of looking at it and may well be totally valid in some cases- though I agree with heralde in that it's not necessarily true in all cases. However, "homosexuality" is the technical term and it is the term used in The Bible, along with sexual immorality, which covers a wider range. God makes it clear in The Bible that both the physical act of men lying with men and women lying with women in a sexual manner is wrong. But He also condemns the attraction and desires that go with it. It all goes back to lust really. Whether it's lust for a homosexual relationship or lust for a premarital heterosexual relationship, it's still wrong.
Perhaps the distinction some pastors might use between "homosexuality" and "gay" and/or "LGBT" is not so much just on the physical aspect of it- though that is certainly covered as well. When people refer to the "gay community" and/or "LGBT community" then it seems they have identified their entire life solely by that characteristic. I mean, heterosexuals don't refer to ourselves as the "heterosexual community".
I suppose it's the same reason people don't generally like to refer to themselves as the "lascivious community" or the "liar community" or the "thieves community" or the "hypocrites community" or the "pride community", etc. People don't want to identify themselves by one sinful act because they don't want to sound like a bad person overall.
Of course, the ironic thing is that we all comprise such communities because we have all sinned and done wrong in different ways.
I'm fully aware that a lot of people struggle with homosexual tendencies, but I don't think that makes them a separate species, if you will. Whether people are honest enough to admit or not remains to be seen, but there are even Christians who struggle with it- because we all struggle with all sins to some degree or another. Some hold greater temptations to some than others. As 1 Timothy 5:24 says, "The sins of some men are obvious, going ahead of them to judgment."
But no matter what your sin struggle is, Jesus Christ died on the cross to pay for every single one of them ever committed. All the sins anyone's ever done, is ever doing and will ever do. And He rose again to prove He's God and to give us eternal hope in conquering the grave and enjoying the free eternal life that He offers.
The reason why Christians repeat this awesome, incredibly Good News ad nauseum is because Jesus told us to, for starters. (Matthew 28:18-20) Also because God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (1 Peter 3:9) The reason is not to offend anyone or condemn anyone. John 3:17 says that even Jesus didn't come to do that. Rather, He came to save the world! (John 3:16) He loves us, He died for us, He rose again and He wants us to know Him as Savior. That's The Gospel. "If you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord' and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9)
Whether gays, LGBTs, homosexuals or however folks want to identify themselves have their version of marriage is besides the point in that regard. The point is that God loves all people and desires all people to come to a knowledge of Him. When the options are either come to know Christ and spend eternity with Him in Heaven or reject Him and spend an eternity in the lake of fire, I think it bears repeating ad nauseum in the hope that the Holy Spirit will penetrate someone's soul and shower them with the love and eternal hope found in Jesus alone.
Now if people have already made up their minds about Jesus, then that's fine. I can't do anything to twist anyone's arm and I don't want to. That's not my position. I can pray for folks and trust God to work, but He's the One who does the saving. I just want everyone to truly consider what Jesus says regarding eternity and if they've really done that and made their decision, then there's nothing more to be said- other than a hearty "Congratulations and welcome to the kingdom of God" for those who choose Christ as Savior and a desperate cajoling and pleading for those who choose to deny Him- although Luke 10 also counsels that there may be a time when you have to shake the dust off your feet from the town that refuses to listen.
But it's a matter of love for the world and wanting to give everyone a chance to know Jesus and have salvation. It's not about lifting myself up or being superior or any of that junk- because I'm not. I'm nothing- without Christ. (John 15:5) It's about showing Jesus' love to everyone and sharing the Good News of salvation that He offers to all. So I hope everyone understands that when I say such things and when any other Christian says this, it's said out of obedience to Jesus and a heart of love.
And it's a choice everyone has to make for themselves- and you're still gonna be loved whatever choice you make.

 

[CensoredAlso]

However, "homosexuality" is the technical term and it is the term used in The Bible, along with sexual immorality, which covers a wider range. God makes it clear in The Bible that both the physical act of men lying with men and women lying with women in a sexual manner is wrong.

Well the thing is, as I see it, while a lot of the rules in Leviticus were relevant for those people at the time, that doesn't mean they all still apply today. I think some of what we interpret as morality concerns in Leviticus, were actually health concerns for the time period. I mean Leviticus also says a woman needs to stay separate from people, even her husband, after having a baby, because she was now "unclean." Their fear of being "unclean" was clearly due to health concerns and it was a great scientific advancement for them to recognize that. But obviously today women don't need to be separate because we've made progress in the medical field. We wouldn't hide new mothers away today just because it's mentioned in the Bible, because we understand the context is different.

Plus even Jesus said the fear of being "unclean" was starting to interfere with God's wishes for humanity to show compassion to others.

It's like the Star Trek episode where Captain Kirk says to the people, "Down the centuries you have slurred the meaning." Both supporters and detractors of the Bible have misconstrued a lot through the centuries.

No one has to agree with me; the world won't come to an end.

 

[frogboy4]

Hmm- that is an interesting way of looking at it and may well be totally valid in some cases- though I agree with heralde in that it's not necessarily true in all cases. However, "homosexuality" is the technical term and it is the term used in The Bible, along with sexual immorality, which covers a wider range. God makes it clear in The Bible that both the physical act of men lying with men and women lying with women in a sexual manner is wrong. But He also condemns the attraction and desires that go with it. It all goes back to lust really. Whether it's lust for a homosexual relationship or lust for a premarital heterosexual relationship, it's still wrong.
Perhaps the distinction some pastors might use between "homosexuality" and "gay" and/or "LGBT" is not so much just on the physical aspect of it- though that is certainly covered as well. When people refer to the "gay community" and/or "LGBT community" then it seems they have identified their entire life solely by that characteristic. I mean, heterosexuals don't refer to ourselves as the "heterosexual community".
I suppose it's the same reason people don't generally like to refer to themselves as the "lascivious community" or the "liar community" or the "thieves community" or the "hypocrites community" or the "pride community", etc. People don't want to identify themselves by one sinful act because they don't want to sound like a bad person overall.
Of course, the ironic thing is that we all comprise such communities because we have all sinned and done wrong in different ways.
I'm fully aware that a lot of people struggle with homosexual tendencies, but I don't think that makes them a separate species, if you will. Whether people are honest enough to admit or not remains to be seen, but there are even Christians who struggle with it- because we all struggle with all sins to some degree or another. Some hold greater temptations to some than others. As 1 Timothy 5:24 says, "The sins of some men are obvious, going ahead of them to judgment."
But no matter what your sin struggle is, Jesus Christ died on the cross to pay for every single one of them ever committed. All the sins anyone's ever done, is ever doing and will ever do. And He rose again to prove He's God and to give us eternal hope in conquering the grave and enjoying the free eternal life that He offers.
The reason why Christians repeat this awesome, incredibly Good News ad nauseum is because Jesus told us to, for starters. (Matthew 28:18-20) Also because God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (1 Peter 3:9) The reason is not to offend anyone or condemn anyone. John 3:17 says that even Jesus didn't come to do that. Rather, He came to save the world! (John 3:16) He loves us, He died for us, He rose again and He wants us to know Him as Savior. That's The Gospel. "If you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord' and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9)
Whether gays, LGBTs, homosexuals or however folks want to identify themselves have their version of marriage is besides the point in that regard. The point is that God loves all people and desires all people to come to a knowledge of Him. When the options are either come to know Christ and spend eternity with Him in Heaven or reject Him and spend an eternity in the lake of fire, I think it bears repeating ad nauseum in the hope that the Holy Spirit will penetrate someone's soul and shower them with the love and eternal hope found in Jesus alone.
Now if people have already made up their minds about Jesus, then that's fine. I can't do anything to twist anyone's arm and I don't want to. That's not my position. I can pray for folks and trust God to work, but He's the One who does the saving. I just want everyone to truly consider what Jesus says regarding eternity and if they've really done that and made their decision, then there's nothing more to be said- other than a hearty "Congratulations and welcome to the kingdom of God" for those who choose Christ as Savior and a desperate cajoling and pleading for those who choose to deny Him- although Luke 10 also counsels that there may be a time when you have to shake the dust off your feet from the town that refuses to listen.
But it's a matter of love for the world and wanting to give everyone a chance to know Jesus and have salvation. It's not about lifting myself up or being superior or any of that junk- because I'm not. I'm nothing- without Christ. (John 15:5) It's about showing Jesus' love to everyone and sharing the Good News of salvation that He offers to all. So I hope everyone understands that when I say such things and when any other Christian says this, it's said out of obedience to Jesus and a heart of love.
And it's a choice everyone has to make for themselves- and you're still gonna be loved whatever choice you make.

Politely put ... complete bulls**t! There was no Hebrew word for the term homosexual when the Bible was written! The subject was completely taboo. Please make no mistake gays just want equal rights. We don't want to covert folks or change their beliefs. Our goals and methods are inherently different than evangelicals because of this.

When I, as a gay person, tell you that throwing around the term "homosexual" as the principle descriptor of gay men and women is disagreeable to me, it should be your duty as a compassionate follower of that Jesus fellow to digest that and be thoughtful rather than defensive and obstinate. The same goes for talking about sin and going to helI. You’ve made that clear and, at least in your posts to me, should stop that sort of harassment. Because it’s exactly that sort of “well-intentioned” belligerent behavior that turns a Christian witness into a bully! If I relentlessly recited written judgments from The Flying Spaghetti Monster, you'd find it irrelevant, irritating and eventually downright creepy after a while.

I respect your belief in God and defend your right to worship and wish that Christians like you would extend that same courtesy to me and other gay people in our way of life. The gay community includes a wide spectrum of individuals and not just one view. The only reason our private lives become a topic of discussion is due to our denial of civil rights – much of it on arbitrary religious grounds. Regardless, the view of God is moot to anything in my life. Every post from you has a heavy-handed Jesus this and salvation that like it's the only thing that defines your life and maybe it is, but sex or being gay has not defined mine.


It’s still widely more accepted for people to toss around Bible verses here and there, but a simple, sweet affectionate act, like publically holding the hand of the fellow I'm dating is demonized as "flaunting" my relationship to some pious people. There's a big difference. Heck, I won't even tell you what happens when I've dated a black fellow. I've heard some downright vicious things said in God's name.

I don't ask for much. Just equal rights, not having Bible verses pointed at me and a bit of basic thoughtfulness. Thanks

 

[RedPiggy]

I get what you're saying, but is that the first descriptor of who you are, what your relationships are about or the activities you share? Probably not.

We are ALL our adjectives and nouns. I can send none of them to the "back of the bus", as it were, LOL. I can't be me without acknowledging all of me. This may be just because I don't really care, but if you wanted to call me simply "the straight chick with glasses", I'd smirk and go on with my day. I mean, I get that you're saying you're being flattened into a one-dimensional character by picking a single label, but why not be proud of it? I mean, it's a part of you, right? Don't let people turn what makes you you into an insult.

Sure, it is, but the word institution congers up the image of an unfortunate place filled with schizophrenics and fear-biters.

Well, if my parents are any indication, LOL ...

it is the term used in The Bible

How so? I remember certain acts being described, but I don't recall seeing the word anywhere.

along with sexual immorality, which covers a wider range

Yes, but it's amazing how much of that gets stuffed under the rug whenever God finds it convenient for the plot.

I suppose it's the same reason people don't generally like to refer to themselves as the "lascivious community" or the "liar community" or the "thieves community" or the "hypocrites community" or the "pride community", etc.

You know, after all this time talking to frogboy4, where he's made it quite clear he's offended by equating homosexuality with sin, which is a concept only from a particular theological view, you might try bridging the conversation gap by choosing labels more carefully for comparison. How about "artist community" or "gamer community" or "healthcare community" or "blogger community"?

As 1 Timothy 5:24 says, "The sins of some men are obvious, going ahead of them to judgment."

And some sins, from my studies, seem to be completely made up. A lot of acts are considered bad ... IF ... the author doesn't like them. However, like I mentioned, if it's necessary for the plot, like marrying your sister or destroying whole towns because your girlfriend is a jerk, magically the sinful nature is portrayed as heroic. I grew up in a region where Halloween, Smurfs, female jeans, short female hairstyles, video games, and comics were of the devil. This tells me that humans are quite capable of slapping their own biases on something God seems to have no real opinion about, given the Big Picture. When Adam and Eve eat of the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, instead of knowing right from wrong, they ironically start BS'ing everything. They try to hide their nudity in front of God, Who has already seen them in the buff without a problem or He would've made them with clothes. God asks them, "Who told you you were naked?" In other words, they are pulling this "sin" out of their behinds. NO ONE said anything about the evils of nudity. They made it up. This sets a bad trend for all later griping about sinful natures, for if sins can be made up at the very beginnng of the story ....

Rather, He came to save the world! (John 3:16)

And then, for some strange reason, He has to come again because apparently Visit 1.0 didn't work.

When the options are either come to know Christ and spend eternity with Him in Heaven or reject Him and spend an eternity in the lake of fire, I think it bears repeating ad nauseum in the hope that the Holy Spirit will penetrate someone's soul and shower them with the love and eternal hope found in Jesus alone.

But your false dichotomy is irrelevant. There is but one "unforgivable" sin, and nothing you've mentioned so far makes the cut. Why should God or Jesus care about gay marriage when Jesus made it quite clear that marriages don't really exist as a legal institution in Heaven?

I just want everyone to truly consider what Jesus says regarding eternity and if they've really done that and made their decision, then there's nothing more to be said- other than a hearty "Congratulations and welcome to the kingdom of God" for those who choose Christ as Savior and a desperate cajoling and pleading for those who choose to deny Him- although Luke 10 also counsels that there may be a time when you have to shake the dust off your feet from the town that refuses to listen.

You are forgetting Jesus' admonition to listen to the morals of Jonah. Jonah WANTED God to get all ticky and destroy sinners. He got ticked off when God shrugged and forgave them anyway. By pleading and cajoling for those who "choose to deny Him", you are, in essence, acting like Jonah, assuming a consequence God is in no way bound to. God threatened A&E with death ... but backed off and let them live for a VERY long time. God is a lot cooler with folks than some people are. This is the true lesson of the bible, both OT and NT.

Well the thing is, as I see it, while a lot of the rules in Leviticus were relevant for those people at the time, that doesn't mean they all still apply today.

Exactly. None of us, as far as I'm aware, are Canaanite fertility cultists.

Plus even Jesus said the fear of being "unclean" was starting to interfere with God's wishes for humanity to show compassion to others.

I have a coworker, an experienced RN, who "doesn't touch blood". I see so often an unwillingness to touch or be near sick or bleeding people. Meanwhile, I give my fate to God: if I must come down with something because I had to help someone, so be it. I've got a decent immune system, I'll wash my hands afterward, etc. I hopefully will never withhold care simply because someone is icky.

Heck, I won't even tell you what happens when I've dated a black fellow.

I could never even get that far as long as my grandfather and mother are still alive. They deny being bigots, but you can see their skin crawl at the thought I like mine dark.

 

[CensoredAlso]

You are forgetting Jesus' admonition to listen to the morals of Jonah. Jonah WANTED God to get all ticky and destroy sinners. He got ticked off when God shrugged and forgave them anyway. By pleading and cajoling for those who "choose to deny Him", you are, in essence, acting like Jonah, assuming a consequence God is in no way bound to. God threatened A&E with death ... but backed off and let them live for a VERY long time. God is a lot cooler with folks than some people are. This is the true lesson of the bible, both OT and NT.

Very good point!

I have a coworker, an experienced RN, who "doesn't touch blood". I see so often an unwillingness to touch or be near sick or bleeding people. Meanwhile, I give my fate to God: if I must come down with something because I had to help someone, so be it. I've got a decent immune system, I'll wash my hands afterward, etc. I hopefully will never withhold care simply because someone is icky.

And God bless you for that, and I mean it with all respect.

I have OCD and I do get too worried about germs and blood sometimes. It's not entirely my fault; it's a compulsion! Lol But I hope I would be able to keep it in check in truly serious situations.

 

[RedPiggy]

I have OCD and I do get too worried about germs and blood sometimes. It's not entirely my fault; it's a compulsion! Lol But I hope I would be able to keep it in check in truly serious situations.

LOL, so do I, at least to an extent. I just shut it off when people need me to. Part of the reason I can do this is that I know how lots of things are transmitted. As long as I make it harder for the bug to get in me, I don't care what I do.

 

[CensoredAlso]

LOL, so do I, at least to an extent. I just shut it off when people need me to. Part of the reason I can do this is that I know how lots of things are transmitted. As long as I make it harder for the bug to get in me, I don't care what I do.

Yeah, education is definitely very important with OCD. OCD is all about fear and you can't think rationally when you're panicing.

 

[frogboy4]

We are ALL our adjectives and nouns. I can send none of them to the "back of the bus", as it were, LOL. I can't be me without acknowledging all of me. This may be just because I don't really care, but if you wanted to call me simply "the straight chick with glasses", I'd smirk and go on with my day. I mean, I get that you're saying you're being flattened into a one-dimensional character by picking a single label, but why not be proud of it? I mean, it's a part of you, right? Don't let people turn what makes you you into an insult.

Ha ha! And I'm widely known as the smiley, pale, blonde gay dude with the funny muppet walk.

As for the rest of it, I do get passionate and I'm truly sorry if that puts anybody off. You always have such kind things to share and I appreciate that.

Christians and gays should be able to live their lives with equal freedoms without the ultimate goal to change the others' mind. Even though I see organized Christianity as something that isn't for me, I do encourage it in other people I know because that method seems to bring out the best in them. It's important that be said and I do get that courtesy back from those particular Christian friends who look forward to the day I'll settle down with a nice tall brunette fellow and marry him.

Far too many Christians choose to preach judgment, albeit from God, in a very unwelcoming way. I'm fine with Christians believing my life to be a sinful one, but I do object to hearing it so much and from the same people again and again. I kind of see Leaper's brand of witnessing as a forceful imposition rather than the thoughtful way other Christians in my life live and share by ingrained example.

I guess some Christians believe it's okay to actively stand in the way of civil rights because their spiritual beliefs when they should just mind their own business and enjoy their own personal freedoms.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Far too many Christians choose to preach judgment, albeit from God, in a very unwelcoming way. I'm fine with Christians believing my life to be a sinful one, but I do object to hearing it so much and from the same people again and again.

I want to point out though that people who identify themselves as Christians make up an overwhelmingly huge part of the country's population. So it's not unusual that you'd tend to see Christians speaking up more about any topic, never mind this particular issue. I'm not saying that makes them right in this case, just pointing out it's partially a numbers game. In other countries, sadly, you would have completely different religions objecting to gay marriage. In fact objecting to gays being able to live, period. I mean the President of Iran would have us believe "there are no gays in Iran." That guy terrifies me to say the least.

I guess some Christians believe it's okay to actively stand in the way of civil rights because their spiritual beliefs when they should just mind their own business and enjoy their own personal freedoms.

They don't see it that way. They don't see it as taking away rights. You're going to find in life that the many truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.