The Bible and Love and Christians

[frogboy4]

Um, Christians have always been on top? Catholics were never specifically oppressed by other denomations? Not according to History.

And anyway, that's not what I was saying at all. I wasn't saying it's all because Christians were bullied. I was saying that calling them the "biggest bigots" is way out of perspective.

Again you assume I'm making excuses. And again, I don't think I can say anything else if I'm just going to keep being accused of that. I'm not angry or anything, but there's not much point continuing.

I respect Catholics, just not the whining about persecution from American members of the most popular sect of the most popular religion in this country. Come on! You're reaching and reaching back way past any history of the past several generations! There's oppression here and now and little if any is directed at Catholics.

 

[CensoredAlso]

You're reaching and reaching back way past any history of the past several generations! There's oppression here and now and little if any is directed at Catholics.

Actually no, I'm not. I assume you've never been Catholic, right?

 

[frogboy4]

Hey, frogboy4- just wanted to say Thank you for your honest answer. You are right that a Christian must have faith in order to trust all that God says and to please God. It's absolutely necessary.
And thank you for your tips about not overloading someone with Scripture. I can understand your point there to a degree. I think most Christians want to point people to The Bible so they can read God's Word for themselves. If I can point you to a Bible verse, then you can read it in context for yourself and not just take my word for what it says. But you make a good point that too much too soon may not be too good.
So would you say that there are perhaps some good morals and things like that which you can take from The Bible, but for the most part, you don't accept the idea of the sovereignty of God or His claims on people's lives?
Just asking- if that's not a fair assessment, let me know- I don't want to misunderstand you.
Do you feel that if, for example, you had a new Christian coworker and you both had to work together- is it best to just not bring up religion period? It seems you're okay with discussing some things of The Bible and about Jesus- but would it be best just not to discuss sexuality in general?
Again- I don't want to put words in your mouth, so tell me if I'm saying something inaccurate here.
What it sounds like I'm hearing is that you can be friends with Christians and don't mind talking about spiritual things- but you find it offensive for Christians to say that The Bible says homosexuality is a sin- mainly because you don't even care for that word due to its focus on the sexual activities, and of course because you don't agree with that assessment.
Or are you just trying to say that it's a message you've already heard and made a decision about and you don't care to hear it anymore? Or perhaps a little of both?
I'm not trying to be snarky with these questions- I'm just curious. If you find it too probing or whatever- then don't feel like you need to reply.
Because while I can't agree with the gay lifestyle Biblically, I do agree with your right to choose whatever lifestyle you wish to live. I'm not here to tell you what to do- I just wanted to present what The Bible says- which I've done- and you've made clear your feelings on that- so there's no need to keep going over it.
And by the way- I have noticed that on the forums you generally have been very gracious in your speech and in defending Christians' rights to worship God and stand by their beliefs, and I do appreciate that too. I hope I have been as gracious in representing Christ and I apologize again for the times where I have not.
And as heralde said, I hope you know that whether we agree on everything or not, I do sincerely wish you the best. Whether people believe in Him or not, I do believe God has made all of us in His image and because of that we are all infinitely important.

Thanks for that. I do mean it.

Again, respectfully please remember this statement: There is no "homosexual lifestyle". We're just people trying to live and thrive like everybody else. The lifestyle buzzword is extremely offensive to us because it creates the idea that we are somehow different when the opposite is true.

I've read the Bible, attended private religious schools, church, held private counsel with church leaders, attended sunday school, retreats and many other organized events up until my late teens and explored Christianity even after that and yes - I do completely reject it permanently. It's one of the few things I am so very certain about. It's great for other people but will never be of interest to me. Thanks for asking that question because it's an important one.

 

[frogboy4]

Actually no, I'm not. I assume you've never been Catholic, right?

Um, I was raised Catholic so wrong again!

Off to my date.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Um, I was raised Catholic so wrong again!

Well you're half right...I was wrong this time. I honestly thought you'd said you weren't. So that's my bad. My apologies.

Honestly I don't think we'll get much further here. I respect you and enjoyed the debate. But I'm not just making excuses and honestly it hurts after awhile to keep being told that. It feels like I'm expected to admit what a terrible person I am. I'm sure that's not your intention, but it's how it feels. I probably sound like a wimp, but that's fine, lol.

Again, take care and good luck on the date.

 

[GonzoLeaper]

Thanks for that. I do mean it.

Again, respectfully please remember this statement: There is no "homosexual lifestyle". We're just people trying to live and thrive like everybody else. The lifestyle buzzword is extremely offensive to us because it creates the idea that we are somehow different when the opposite is true.

I've read the Bible, attended private religious schools, church, held private counsel with church leaders, attended sunday school, retreats and many other organized events up until my late teens and explored Christianity even after that and yes - I do completely reject it permanently. It's one of the few things I am so very certain about. It's great for other people but will never be of interest to me. Thanks for asking that question because it's an important one.

Hmm- interesting. Hadn't heard it like that before. Thanks for your perspective on it.

 

[frogboy4]

Well you're half right...I was wrong this time. I honestly thought you'd said you weren't. So that's my bad. My apologies.

Honestly I don't think we'll get much further here. I respect you and enjoyed the debate. But I'm not just making excuses and honestly it hurts after awhile to keep being told that. It feels like I'm expected to admit what a terrible person I am. I'm sure that's not your intention, but it's how it feels. I probably sound like a wimp, but that's fine, lol.

Again, take care and good luck on the date.

None of this has been about you specifically or being a terrible person at all. I've never seen substantial American Catholic oppression in my lifetime, but maybe that just from what I know and the places I've lived (Houston, New York, Washington D.C. and San Francisco). I've never lived in the heartland so that could be an entirely different proposition.

I'm a white guy who was raised by Christian Republicans from Texas and these are wonderful people. However, I've seen how 99.9% of them turn a blind eye to the oppression of gays and other minorities even when it's right in front of them. I could have lived my life in the closet and many more doors would have opened up to me, but I chose to be honest and come out.

Basically, I've seen and lived both perspectives for many years each so the criticism stated is well formed and pointed at the majority of well-intentioned people I grew up with and know rather than you in particular. These people weren't evil by any means, but would stay silent in a way their savior never would and that bothers me. It should bother any Christian person and I'm sure it probably bothers you. It just appeared that you were quick to rationalize it before digesting what had been said. Maybe I was wrong about that.

Also, thanks. My date went well. No kiss, but that was on my part because I think we make better friends. I hope he's not offended by that.

Hmm- interesting. Hadn't heard it like that before. Thanks for your perspective on it.

Lifestyle implies an accumulation of particular habits or patterns. To many, this means we go to rallies, parades, clubs and have indiscriminate sex on a regular basis and that is just not true. We wake up, have breakfast, go to work and do all the things non-gay people do. If we're single we go on dates, if we've met somebody we try to build a life together. The only lifestyle elements to that are the legal restrictions imposed. There's much more lawyering we have to go through to get a fraction of the civil rights straight couples can get merely by saying "I do" in a Vegas drive-thru chapel ceremony. Anyway, we put our pants on one leg at a time. There's no real lifestyle. This can get confusing when once a year Fox News Channel exploits certain images from Gay Pride Parades, but that's as authentic an example of us as Marti Gras is for straight people.

Hope that cleared up the difference.

 

[CensoredAlso]

It just appeared that you were quick to rationalize it before digesting what had been said. Maybe I was wrong about that.

Gotcha. What I had in mind was diplomacy, trying to mediate the two sides somewhat. I can see where that comes across like rationalization but I more trying to be more of a mediator. If that wasn't apparent, then I should presue a different career, lol.

Also, thanks. My date went well. No kiss, but that was on my part because I think we make better friends. I hope he's not offended by that.

That kind of happened to me once. We had fun but I just wasn't sure about whether we would be just friends in the future. It's hard to know what to do.

 

[GonzoLeaper]

Lifestyle implies an accumulation of particular habits or patterns. To many, this means we go to rallies, parades, clubs and have indiscriminate sex on a regular basis and that is just not true. We wake up, have breakfast, go to work and do all the things non-gay people do. If we're single we go on dates, if we've met somebody we try to build a life together. The only lifestyle elements to that are the legal restrictions imposed. There's much more lawyering we have to go through to get a fraction of the civil rights straight couples can get merely by saying "I do" in a Vegas drive-thru chapel ceremony. Anyway, we put our pants on one leg at a time. There's no real lifestyle. This can get confusing when once a year Fox News Channel exploits certain images from Gay Pride Parades, but that's as authentic an example of us as Marti Gras is for straight people.

Hope that cleared up the difference.

Okay- I can understand your point. There are a lot of stereotypical images that immediately come to mind for some folks on a lot of things unfortunately. I don't like stereotypes- I know that on some level somewhere, some of them are true in some cases (otherwise the stereotype wouldn't exist) but that doesn't mean it's true in all cases. And I try not to immediately assume that "such and such" must be true of someone if they are "such and such". (Though there are obviously always some unconscious and ingrained stereotypes that I know everyone has to deal with sometimes.)
But yeah- it doesn't really matter who we're talking about and what categories they might identify with or people might put them in- ultimately, as Pete so brilliantly said in "The Muppets Take Manhattan"- "Peoples are peoples." And all peoples are important to and loved by God and by me through God's amazing love.

 

[frogboy4]

Okay- I can understand your point...as Pete so brilliantly said in "The Muppets Take Manhattan"- "Peoples are peoples." And all peoples are important to and loved by God and by me through God's amazing love.

That's exactly how I feel too.

_________​

On another note, there's been a viral video on YouTube that i've found very offensive. I won't link to it because to me it's just so inflammatory, but it's some nit-wit girl in her 20's who thanks God for the tragedy in Japan because it "shook them" out of their Atheism and Godlessness. I know she's one of the rare loony birds, but you've got to think that there's some sort of group of these normal-seeming toxic folk that mar the perception of Christians as a whole. I just don't understand how anybody can be joyous over the deaths of other people no matter who they are or what they believe.