The Bible and Love and Christians

[CensoredAlso]

I still think self-proclaimed religious folk are called to set a higher standard. Fair, shmair. It's up to each individual to be the best representative they can be of their chosen faith. I'm just a gay dude. I have no higher calling other than one of basic humanity, yet in my personal relationships with people you'd see my behavior is quite Christian in nature.

Yes, of course they're called to a higher standard (though frankly I think everyone should be). But forgive me if I'm wrong, it just feels like you're demanding nothing less than perfection and then when you don't get it, you decide everything's wrong. I've said that there are a lot of Christians who do speak out on these issues, but it feels like you keep dwelling on the ones that don't.

Again, I don't mean for my tone to sound harsh, just want to make sure I'm clear in my message. And as we all keep saying, obviously we don't know how we all behave in real life, so it's important not to jump to conclusions.

 

[frogboy4]

Yes, of course they're called to a higher standard (though frankly I think everyone should be). But forgive me if I'm wrong, it just feels like you're demanding nothing less than perfection and then when you don't get it, you decide everything's wrong. I've said that there are a lot of Christians who do speak out on these issues, but it feels like you keep dwelling on the ones that don't.

Again, I don't mean for my tone to sound harsh, just want to make sure I'm clear in my message. And as we all keep saying, obviously we don't know how we all behave in real life, so it's important not to jump to conclusions.

Nope. Not at all. I'm here to tell you that the one group that has made the lives of gays in America the most miserable is Christians. Hands down. Accept no substitutions. They have the biggest bigots by far. That is certainly not to say they are the only ones, but I am saying that the perception that Christians are intolerant people who meddle in the lives of others and force them to follow Biblical convictions is perpetuated by those who stay silent.

Yes I dwell on it because it's the most visible form of Christianity seen by non-Christians today and if Christians wish to change it it's up to you and all people of that particular faith to do so. But if it's not a priority to you guys then you can't complain about fairness. You simply can't have it both ways.

I enjoy our dialog here and I'm not sure how you in particular act in your personal life away from the forum, but in this thread there are usually excuses made for Christians. That's okay. I'm not vilifying all of Christiandom or even most of Christiandom. However, it is up to all of you guys to change the oppressive persona because it's by and large how most non-believers see you and you guys are the majority.

**I'm just part of the minority tossing pebbles at the giants trying to get enough of them to notice the bullies they've been ignoring.** Nothing more.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Well from my point of view, we were having an intelligent debate and I enjoy it as well. But if you think all my points are just "excuses," then I'm honestly sure what else I can say. Except the usual, agree to disagree.

But I do wish you well in any case, I hope that's understood.

 

[frogboy4]

Well from my point of view, we were having an intelligent debate and I enjoy it as well. But if you think all my points are just "excuses," then I'm honestly sure what else I can say. Except the usual, agree to disagree.

But I do wish you well in any case, I hope that's understood.

Not *just* excuses, but you have to realize it in a context. Think back to high school when there's a clique of popular kids that all seem to have common interests and basically have dominion over the place. Consider that most of these kids are probably good people, but a few key members who are most visible and vocal bully the other misfit kids. It's up to the good kids to call these bullies out because it reflects poorly on the group as a whole and because it's the decent thing to do. Far too many of these good kids have so many other things to worry about in their own personal lives, but taking a little time to look out for others is important too. They deserve to be painted with that wide brush if they stay silent while their associates intimidate and cause harm to others. They can't control the bullies, but they can stand up and be counted as someone who opposes such practices. There is no excuse in my book for not doing so. That's what I'm trying to say and I think you probably agree with most of that.

 

[CensoredAlso]

I agree with what you're saying. I'm just kinda surprised you figured I would agree. I mean, what with my being a big bad Christian and all...heh. Sorry for the sarcasm but you see what I'm saying as well?

 

[frogboy4]

I agree with what you're saying. I'm just surprised you figured I would agree. I mean, what with my being a big bad Christian and all...heh. Sorry for the sarcasm but you see what I'm saying as well?

Of course i thought you'd agree. I guess that's the picture that should have been painted a while back. Everyone can relate to high school awkwardness.

A few big-bad bully apples tent to taint the whole bunch. That's exactly what creates a counter-punch like Marilyn Manson. I don't think there's a need for anyone to push and shove in order to be respected. But I just get awfully tired of unsolicited condemnation in my daily life whether it be on the subway or on the television. Even here I hear a lot of mean crap said in the name of Jesus.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Of course i thought you'd agree. I guess that's the picture that should have been painted a while back. Everyone can relate to high school awkwardness.

Exactly!

A few big-bad bully apples tent to taint the whole bunch.

Well no offence but that partly depends on who decides to do the tainting.

But I just get awfully tired of unsolicited condemnation in my daily life whether it be on the subway or on the television.

What a coincidence, so do I. The so-called "biggest bigots" are no strangers to being oppressed themselves. And not because they're intolerant either.

And no those are not excuses. It's putting things in perspective.

 

[frogboy4]

Exactly!



Well no offence but that partly depends on who decides to do the tainting.



What a coincidence, so do I. The so-called "biggest bigots" are no strangers to being oppressed themselves. And not because they're intolerant either.

And no those are not excuses. It's putting things in perspective.

Oh, I don't believe that bullies are bullies because they've been bullied themselves sort of garbage. Mean people choose to be mean for a variety of reasons...sometimes - a lot of the time - it's because they've always been on top.

 

[CensoredAlso]

- a lot of the time - it's because they've always been on top.

Um, Christians have always been on top? Catholics were never specifically oppressed by other denomations? Not according to History.

And anyway, that's not what I was saying at all. I wasn't saying it's all because Christians were bullied. I was saying that calling them the "biggest bigots" is way out of perspective.

Again you assume I'm making excuses. And again, I don't think I can say anything else if I'm just going to keep being accused of that. I'm not angry or anything, but there's not much point continuing.

 

[GonzoLeaper]

You asked about what parts bothered me about the Bible, but I do not wish to be converted. Any Christian would be perplexed by this information if it came from a source other than the Bible and that's the perspective non-Christians are coming from.

There’s one huge thing that Christians should keep in mind if they wish to successfully witness and that’s to resist the urge to proclaim scriptural quotes until somebody wants to hear the message and asks for more. There are polite ways of sharing and instigating a conversation, but quoting the Bible by verse and chapter to people is a huge turn-off to non-believers. I understand that it’s necessary down the line, but you’ve first got to have your foot in the door.

Hey, frogboy4- just wanted to say Thank you for your honest answer. You are right that a Christian must have faith in order to trust all that God says and to please God. It's absolutely necessary.
And thank you for your tips about not overloading someone with Scripture. I can understand your point there to a degree. I think most Christians want to point people to The Bible so they can read God's Word for themselves. If I can point you to a Bible verse, then you can read it in context for yourself and not just take my word for what it says. But you make a good point that too much too soon may not be too good.
So would you say that there are perhaps some good morals and things like that which you can take from The Bible, but for the most part, you don't accept the idea of the sovereignty of God or His claims on people's lives?
Just asking- if that's not a fair assessment, let me know- I don't want to misunderstand you.
Do you feel that if, for example, you had a new Christian coworker and you both had to work together- is it best to just not bring up religion period? It seems you're okay with discussing some things of The Bible and about Jesus- but would it be best just not to discuss sexuality in general?
Again- I don't want to put words in your mouth, so tell me if I'm saying something inaccurate here.
What it sounds like I'm hearing is that you can be friends with Christians and don't mind talking about spiritual things- but you find it offensive for Christians to say that The Bible says homosexuality is a sin- mainly because you don't even care for that word due to its focus on the sexual activities, and of course because you don't agree with that assessment.
Or are you just trying to say that it's a message you've already heard and made a decision about and you don't care to hear it anymore? Or perhaps a little of both?
I'm not trying to be snarky with these questions- I'm just curious. If you find it too probing or whatever- then don't feel like you need to reply.
Because while I can't agree with the gay lifestyle Biblically, I do agree with your right to choose whatever lifestyle you wish to live. I'm not here to tell you what to do- I just wanted to present what The Bible says- which I've done- and you've made clear your feelings on that- so there's no need to keep going over it.
And by the way- I have noticed that on the forums you generally have been very gracious in your speech and in defending Christians' rights to worship God and stand by their beliefs, and I do appreciate that too. I hope I have been as gracious in representing Christ and I apologize again for the times where I have not.
And as heralde said, I hope you know that whether we agree on everything or not, I do sincerely wish you the best. Whether people believe in Him or not, I do believe God has made all of us in His image and because of that we are all infinitely important.