regular figures...mega sized...what about minis?

[ResidentLilly]

The funny thing is, and I know this is going to be hard to believe, I or even Palisades didn't come here for that purpose. The truth is I was invited by someone who contacted me off this list to come check out the place. So I did, and it sort of grew from there.

I guess what bothers me is the question of intent really. But that may be unavoidable. We are the company, you are the Muppet fans. Although that is what it seems, I think it's important to point out that one does not default the other. By that I mean I can be a Palisades Man and a Muppet Fan, and be both at the same time.

I was a Muppet Fan before I was a Palisades Man. The truth of the matter is that I proposed the idea to make Muppet figures to the Palisades team during one of the first licensing meets we had together. I wanted for a long time to do figures of them. Granted, until I came here I knew very little beyond say about 12-15 characters, but that's also why I stuck around here, to learn from people and to re-educate myself on a childhood thing I dug.

It's impossible for me to really defend myself, or the company I work with, regarding all of this. Perception is perception, and we DO gain something from the board interaction. My hope is that it has been and always will be a two way street. The board gets stuff from us, we get stuff from the board.

A symbiotic relationship suggests a parasitic one, and that bothers me. If I ever really believed that I would leave today and never look back. My hope is that it is not that and never becomes that. I would hope that you might one day see this differently, but I certainly can't blame you if you don't. You are an individual, entitled to everything you feel and then some.

Regarding the mistakes to the product. I can't defend that either. They have existed. They will always exist. Nature of all product I guess. From time to time you get product that is not what it should be, or slightly defective. That shouldn't, in my opinion, be something to hold against us. We will glady exchange any product. As for design flaws, that happened too and I can only accept responsibility for that. Board interaction, like it or not, will help that in the future. It is board interaction that will result in a materials change for Scooter's glasses so we don't have a Bunsen-like problem, and I wouldn't have even known about the problem without being here. No one on any other board mentioned it. Why? They aren't the real Muppet fans. They never pulled up in the glasses cause they didn't know the CHARACTER did that. You guys did, and I got that insight from you.

That's gotta be at least one example on the benefit, yeah?

In any case, I appreciate you sharing your thougts on it...and understand you a little better than I did before.

 

[Luke]

Jamie

First off - can we, both of us, please stop using words like 'sillyness' and 'wierdness' - it kinda makes it seem like one person is belittling the other and i think we both have too much intelligence for that.

For the record i DO want to talk about the figures, and also i don't have anything against the figures - i would perhaps like to see some of the faults sorted out next wave up (especially to make them a little safer for our teeny fans) but everybody has teething mistakes and i'm more than sure Ken will always do his utmost to sort things.

There are occasions when i would like to talk about other stuff though, and i do sometimes find it time consuming to look somewhere on MC without there being a figure reference close by. Therfore i think that to some people not interested in the figures (and we have lots of older people and non-collectors here too) it must also seem a pain. I'm kinda putting my boy scout hat on here and thinking of others - as a general Muppet forum and not a figure forum we need to make it easy for everyone to enjoy the place, not just Palisades fans. Yes a start has been made with having a figures folder all to itself, but it would be cool to clean up the 'new threads' list when certain posts are way off being a 'new thread' rather than someone just not bothering to post in the right place. Also as i said the FAQ will help tons, but we need to actually get into the practice of using it.

As we now have this increased member base of hardcore figure collectors, and more newer members via people buying the figures and becoming interested in the brand - we need to act responsibly and make the forum work for EVERYONE, if this means a few pointers like i posted to you last then so be it - i don't think it's any kind of censorship - did you really think it was that barbaric and harsh ? As we are developing into a forum with a larger memberbase, management of the forum content will become inevitable. Most of the big forums like Simpsons or Transformers (although they are in the many thousands) have this kind of thing going on, and if they didn't - everything would just be a confusing free for all, i don't want us to get to that stage here.

I am happy to see you and others getting credit on the actual products. I congratulated you because i had just been shown it. I did wonder at first why a lot of MC people were listed there because i rememberd it was Warricks idea, but when Ken explained it was more a general thanks i got the idea, and its a very cool thing to do.

I hope there are no hard feelings - i'm basically saying what i think, and listening to what you think and most of the time i can understand both sides of it all.

 

[Louis Kazagger]

I'm sure there's a little more to Ken's time spent here than self promotion for the line here for him. I'm shocked at how active he is here and at how often he actually posts in this forum, to his fiancee's chagrin I'm sure.

"The intent was to gain business for the Palisades products"? I doubt that, as the membership on the forum is a drop in the bucket compared to the production runs on the line I'm sure, and most of the people here would have been automatic customers anyway. There's no way it could have been a primary agenda.

I applaud the efforts that Ken puts in here for research and development, to help Palisades make the best product possible. I've seen a lot of people in charge of lines who were not as passionate, and believe me when I tell you that it shows in the product.

Why not defer to those who are the experts on the subject matter, in the interests of making a better product? It only makes sense to me, to work hand in hand with those who can give him the quick answers to his questions about the Muppets, and in turn we get info about the line.

Then, out of his presence I guess you get two kinds of reactions from people, those who are willing to help because they're happy to contribute to a product they love, and those who are resentful because they don't want to be free consultants.

Believe me, I know what the latter feels like, because years ago, I complained and complained and complained and complained about what a mess the Toyfare price guide was (items miscategorized, items that didn't exist were listed, innaccurate prices, and on and on and on...). Someone who got tired of me complaining asked me why didn't I become part of the solution instead of complaining about it and tell Toyfare what was wrong, but I balked because I wasn't about to become Toyfare's all day sucker and help fix their mess for free (their price guide editor got paid to do that, right?).

Why do people still love this figures, warts and all? Well, you yourself have said that you're no action figure expert. I, on the other hand have been a toy collector for over twenty years, and I can tell you firsthand that I've seen a ton of garbage come down the pipe over that period (with a myriad of problems). Sure, no line is perfect, but Palisades has done a very impressive job thus far with the Muppets in my estimation.

If the forum has evolved into an all action figure talk group, well, I don't think anyone should make apologies for that. Certainly if I can navigate only the action figures threads when I want to and only the puppetry thread when I want to, then so can other people navigate only the threads they want and avoid the action figure thread altogether if it is a plague to them. For anyone to leave or stop posting in the other threads was their choice, no one asked them to stop participating. I'm happy for them if they have found more "mature" places to share their non action figure talk, but I'm also sorry that they have stopped contributing here, as I'm very ignorant about Muppetfest and some other topics discussed here in the past and would like to have learned from them. I'm hopeful that Matleo is right and that when Muppetfest and the new show are closer to reality, discussion on those topics will resume. I look forward to an FAQ, and have no problem directing people to it, and I agree that it is becoming more and more necessary.

 

[frogboy4]

Luke

Forgive my over use of the word silly. It was silly for me to do so and there will be no silliness of the sort in the future. You have made it known that it is offensive to you and that's really all I need to know to discontinue the word in future posts to you.

There are occasions I would like to talk about other stuff too, but a brief appearance that didn't really happen on Nascar, a radio performance in the UK that many of us didn't have the pleasure of hearing (although I would like to know more about it) and other such things haven't amounted to enough for discussion lately.

There was much talk of Swamp Years and of the new shows, but we'll have to wait for more news. I'm sure there will be a lot of discussion. I have also started threads on Cyndi in the general discussion section though few people appear to be the fan I am. She's so unusual! I also like to hear about the figures. I have a feeling that it will lose momentum after we get more waves, but I hope it remains an active part of the forum for years to come. I will look into friendly gestures to guide others to the standard questions about the figures, but the best thing you can do to encourage others talk about something else is to think of an interesting thread.

Just wait until Swamp Years comes, then the Christmas Special, then the fest followed by the new show! Hang on...good stuff coming!

 

[matleo]

Originally posted by ResidentLilly
The funny thing is, and I know this is going to be hard to believe, I or even Palisades didn't come here for that purpose. The truth is I was invited by someone who contacted me off this list to come check out the place. So I did, and it sort of grew from there.

Ken beat me ot sayng this but I'll bakk him on it. Annika and I were actually discussing it the "the orogin of Ken" the other day and I couldntrmemebr who sent him here, so I went back and here it is.....all the way from Delphiforums fo ma little thread entitiled "PalisadesE-mail: Muppet Toys wishes" and dated Oct, 11th, 2001 , posted by Elecrticmayhm _with excerpts from ken.

7149.1_
Well, I finally found some initiative lingering in my being & I took our **Muppet figure wish list** and e-mailed Palisades with some comments and a link to the forum. And to my suprise, THEY RESPONDED!! There still wasn't a lot of info divulged, but it sounds like our beloved Muppets are in good hands. I feel guilty though that he took exception with one of my sarcastic comments I made! Oh well, here's the e-mail...

"Hey,
Didn't get a name in your e-mail, copied below. I just wanted you to know that I went to the site you linked to and read all the posts. Some good ideas there, to be sure. I can tell that you guys are a great group of fans of the Muppets. So am I, just so you know, and since I am in charge of the project creatively I thought you might like to know that the license is in good hands. Not saying that when the line comes out that everyone will be happy with every decision, but that's the nature of the business. But I am saying that I am taking great care with the development of these figs so that they appeal to fans of the show, not just to kids. IN fact, decisions are getting made every day that keep the collector and Muppet fan in mind

.........

I have always been a toy and action figure collector, and I swore that if I ever did this that I would be as available as I can be to anyone who wants some contact with someone working on a figure that they are really excited about getting. SO it's no bother, but actually a pleasure, to try to talk to the people I am working so hard for. If I don't have the time to get back to you I'll tell you I am swamped. If I can't answer something I'll shoot straight and tell you that I just can't because of a marketing issue.
..........
I hope that the figures and our actions can help to make that statement less applicable. We are a small group of very dedicated people and I would like to think that it matters that I check boards, post, listen to feedback and criticism and try to always honor those whose support and money puts food on my table every night and allows me the opportunity to do something I love. Don't know who wrote that line, but I understand that we often get rooked (I feel it too...the sting of not being able to get any pin pal Simpsons figures is a painful one for me..) but hopefully smaller collector-friendly companies like Palisades can keep the faith in the reasons we all buy these toys and figures.

..........

Anyway, didn't mean to ramble on here, but I dig the fact that you wrote in and showed me the board. It was good to hear the enthusiasm and I wanted you to know that I appreciate it!

Thanks,
Ken


I edited some things out of Ken's priginal message (info on the series 1), but yes he was invited here.

--Matt

 

[FellowWLover]

Originally posted by ResidentLilly
The funny thing is, and I know this is going to be hard to believe, I or even Palisades didn't come here for that purpose. The truth is I was invited by someone who contacted me off this list to come check out the place. So I did, and it sort of grew from there.

Ken, are you saying that you were contacted by Muppet Central?

...I mean I can be a Palisades Man and a Muppet Fan, and be both at the same time.

This is a point that you have made before, and I can see where you are coming from of course. Just as people here have come to love you, I am sure that your affection has grown for "us" (well maybe not *all* of us... ;-) as well as for the Muppets in general. I don't doubt that at all.

It's impossible for me to really defend myself, or the company I work with, regarding all of this.

I really don't think it is necessary for you to defend yourself. I certainly was not asking for anything from you, and was instead merely answering your query. I know that my opinion is in the minority. I would never ask you to altar your behavior here, nor to explain it. (I read all your posts doing so on the Delphi forum when you first were questioned anyway.)

A symbiotic relationship suggests a parasitic one, and that bothers me.

Not necessarily, although there is that chance... not to get all Websters on you, but here is the definition I was working with:

sym·bi·o·sis. 1. Biology. A close, prolonged association between two or more different organisms of different species that may, but does not necessarily, comparably benefit each member.

... it is the *comparably* part that I was referring to. No doubt there have been benefits on both sides, but are they comparable?

And in asking the question, let me state that I really don't know! I am not trying to be smart here. I know that Palisades certainly benefits, but I have no idea how much (whether it be financial, a boost in reputation, stocks or otherwise... and let me add here that I do not really deserve nor do I want to know, so please don't go into it for my sake).

I know that the fans certainly benefit, and most would probably say that just having the figures made to their specifications, and being "in" on all the news and plans is more than enough "benefit" to last a lifetime. (As well as helping you trouble-shoot as you mentioned with Scooter's glasses.) The special perks and thanks that were offered to the fans who contributed something extra is especially nice.

And I am certain that MC benefits in some way, although that is probably the most unclear to me. Perhaps whomever invited you might be able to shed more light onto that question, but either way, I know that MC enjoys the notoriety of being involved with Palisades and your presence here has certainly brought more traffic to the board and website.

Other than that, I am not sure how far it goes, but those are questions that were often raised on the old forum, and need not be delved into here. (Although just for your information, you may want to brush up a bit on "MC politics" in order to better understand why some people come from where they do. Course that would mean a lot of scrolling and reading on the old forum, which I bet is about the *last* thing you have time for!)

All in all, it may be a great symbiotic thing going here... just have to watch that "comparable benefits" part IMO. And I have to say that you certainly have shown great patience and an awesome work ethic through it all; both qualities that I recognize and admire. As I said before Ken, nothing personal here, just one person's opinion.

 

[FellowWLover]

Looks like we were posting at the same time Matt. Thanks for taking the time to write that!

 

[FellowWLover]

Re: Luke

Originally posted by frogboy4
Your name was on the Invisible Fozzie figure itself. Look closely!

The photo I saw was blurry. What do you mean?

 

[Luke]

Jamie

That all pretty much sounds good - I don't want people to stop talking about the figures or being encouraged off anywhere but yeah, i do see things we can do to have a healthy mix of action figure and non-figure related chat - but to do that it takes an effort from everyone to make the FAQ work the way its been intended, keep the other non-figure threads active so that they don't drop down in all the thread lists, and also do what we can to politely encourage people to post in the right place - obviously there is going to be certain figure news that requires its own thread, but where people are 'Asking Ken' it really helps for them to actually post in 'Ask Ken' and also hopefully getting referred to the FAQ for questions about the collectors club payments/deliveries would stop cut down all the questions there. I don't know if Phil would consider moving new threads which are basically 'Ask Ken' matierial into 'Ask Ken' - maybe that'd be a bit too harsh but it might help the forum overall. It might also help once we get to say 1,000 people if yourself and Annika also really got to actively moderate the forum moving posts into folders, promoting the FAQ and guiding people on how to use the forum - it seems to be more than a one person job.

As to the lack of news on other non-figure related stuff - i take your point, but i do also think that what HAS happened hasn't been made enough off. For instance - you said that many people didn't have the pleasure of hearing the UK radio appearance but thats wrong - it was streamed live on the web and is still archived there. That was the first time some of the puppeteers performed and brought back some old characters and the Henson company themselves even made a point of specifically pointing it out to us through the rarely used JHC mailing list. I would imagine they were after feedback from the hardcore fans before they performed these for the rest of the public but i think they'd kinda be dissapointed by the response. I guess it was just a case of unfortunate timing but there are other examples like that too.

I look forward to all the new stuff coming from Henson (and indeed Palisades) in the future, hoping that we can make sure everything (figure or non-figure) gets the attention it deserves, and hopefully managing such a popular forum responsibly and together as a community so that nobody feels alienated or left out. If He-Man and Optimus Prime can do it - i'm sure as heck that Kermit can ! ;-)

Louis Kazagger

I agree with some of what you said, but i also think that to fully understand the points Jessica made you also have to either know the full history of 'Muppet Central' or have been here for a good few years which unfortunately, you haven't. A lot of the questions being raised about Ken or Palisades being here or involved with Muppet Central would probably seem strange to the newer people here and also maybe even to Ken and Mike who may not be fully aware of what has gone on or been discussed in the past - to be honest it's not their fault, they have been caught between a rock and a hardplace because they entered the forum 'blind' and the fans wouldn't usually be as concerned or anxious about someone involved with merchandising coming onto the forum like some of us are with Muppet Central.

Many people for a long, long time have been concerned about the way 'Muppet Central' raises money to fund the site costs - sometimes it seems to rely too heavily on the 'store' which it gets a commision from. At one point, there were continous references on the forum as to 'you can buy this item from our store' and 'go and read the review of xxxxxxxx on the main site' and when you got there it would be littered with links back to the store. Thankfully, much of that has been reduced nowdays but people were anxious that 'Muppet Central' was putting too much of an emphasis on the store and using the Muppet characters, shows and merchandise to lead people into the part of the site that makes money. As you might have guessed most of us here have a very close affinity with the Muppets and also the Henson people and we didn't feel it was right for an unofficial site to be seen (whether intentionally or not) as USING the Muppets - it's a very bad image to have and doesn't create the best atmosphere.

So when Palisades came onto the forum it had a lot of people thinking about how 'Muppet Central' would react. I would think a lot of us feel the biggest unofficial site should remain impartial and unbiased, but there is a big question over whether it can do that when it has such a close relationship with the people making the figures. It controls how the Palisades relationship is handled very closely with a moderator writing the reviews and co-writing the FAQ, the figure news and lists being contained on the main site with affiliate links, and also giving the figures major coverage all over the site. It also has gained more visitors to the main site through people coming here because of the Palisades involvement and so increased people seeing those store links and being interested in the other merchandise on offer. Lastly and the thing i was most concerned of was that the site started actually selling the Palisades figures and having links to the sales pages throughout its reviews and articles on them - to me this takes away a lot of the impartiality and means the site stands to financially gain from having the Palisades people here, and i think thats unneccasary taking away a lot of our independance and makes it look (even if it isn't the actual case) like Muppet Central is feeding off Palisades, and the other way around. I just think in that way, things could have been handled much better maybe with some ground rules being laid down between MC and Palisades as to how the information from Ken on the forum is translated into news on the main site which then links people into buying the figures. I especially think this is important with the FAQ so that every mention of a figure doesn't also become an affiliate link to EBGames.

Anyway, thats just my thoughts on the subject, and it might help a lot of people understand just why this kind of thing ever came to be mentioned, ever.

 

[ResidentLilly]

Here's a question. Why would it be such a bad thing for this site to benefit, financially, from it's involvement with Palisades? We certainly do on some small level, why not the other way around? I don't know much about who owns this site, who runs it and so on. But I know that it's expensive to do any web stuff, and I am curious why the site would be a bad thing if it turned some cash and expanded itself. It could then certainly offer more benefits to its members.

What if, for example, you were able to buy figures from Muppet Central at less than what you pay now? Not saying that would ever even happen, but what if? That would be a members benefit and the site would profit slightly to allow some new aspect to the site that wasn't there before.

To me I don't see how that would be a bad thing, but I am a newbie quite frankly, and so any change doesn't affect me. Although I am beginning to sense a Transformers thing...more than meets the eye. There is something beneath the surface about all this stuff that has not pushed it's way through yet to me. Maybe it's that people generally don't like change, maybe it's more than that on a political level I don't understand.

In any case, it's been one heck of an interesting debate to say the least.

And thanks Matt for finding that old post. I appreciate that because it backs up what I said about not coming here to fleece anybody and having been invited to listen to opinions and feedback.