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[Buck-Beaver]

I do have a konova slider that i like... but i really dont want all my stuff teetering up on boxes and and looking all makeshift.. especially since i allready own the jib and really dig the shots its given us so far... the issue isnt really the jib itself... its the height... and pulling focus... i may invest in a whip for the follow focus... have u ever used one? i also checked out some motorized follow focus' but hadnt fully decided on one yet...

There's nothing makeshift about using Apple boxes. Professional crews use them all the time. Your options for raising a camera are really limited to:

1. Insanely high 7'0 tripods (I have seen a few of these, but they seem to cost $700+)
2. Apple boxes or some kind of platform
3. A jib or crane, which is the hardest to use and takes up the most space.

I've never needed a whip, things like rails kits and jibs become a gear trap. You don't just have to buy the big thing, you need all the little things to go along with it.

Seriously, buy three brand new, shiny apples boxes or build a platform. So much cheaper than a motorized follow focus.

the 14mm is much much slower than the 35... and at times i feel i have to light the room completely different to use it properly so its not really my work horse... plus with using puppets (keeping heads and arms out of shot) and having a limited set (cant go to high or low or expose the drop ceiling or unfinished set) with that wide angle its really tough to frame the shot.

I'm not that familiar with your lens, but doesn't it stop down to F22? That should give you plenty of depth of field. And an f2.8 isn't a slow lens, it's just that at 1.5 your 35mm lens is super fast.

Really, I think you would be best served by adjusting your lighting set-up. You should be able to get decent depth of field with either of those lenses if you have enough light.

Does that little canon have any decent depth of field?

It should. It has 8 aperture blades on the lens, so it should give you much better bokeh than, say, Canon's ultra-cheap 50mm lens on your DSLR since it only has four blades.

One final thing...sorry if this is obvious, but you do know the reason you don't have autofocus has nothing to do with your camera, right? It's because you're shooting with Rokina lenses. You can buy the most expensive camera in the world, but you won't have autofocus if you put those manual lenses on it.

 

[crazy chris]

One final thing...sorry if this is obvious, but you do know the reason you don't have autofocus has nothing to do with your camera, right? It's because you're shooting with Rokina lenses. You can buy the most expensive camera in the world, but you won't have autofocus if you put those manual lenses on it.

hahahhaha yeah... i would be using the kit lens for the autofocus.... and yes i realize any kit lens would not be fast to match the rokinon either...lol... the thing i dont like about the "auto" focus on the canon is that u have to physically touch the camera by hitting the shutter button to make it work... i just wanted something that i could fly at 7 feet and get a decent shot when the cameras in motion... also MAINLY for run and gun use when filming the Gabby segments out in real world situations

I will go ahead and lay it out there... you simply arent talking me out of using the jib...HAHAHAHA its my baby... and its mobile and zero hassle as far as performance...unlike building a cumbersome platform or teetering on apple crates...just not my style... im a big boy and need to be on the ground...hahahaha.... I also rarely have anyone around to pull focus for me and id rather not be doing it on a ladder... thus the motorized follow focus option...

I am sure you are REALLY going to think im nuts...but im looking to pick up a proaim quad dolly and wave jib to do exquisite panning on our main set... The beauty of it is i will be able to mount a fluid head on the jib and with an extendable handle have some good control of tilt as well....

I was also contemplating shooting in 60p with the sony... any thoughts on 60p for use with erratic puppet action? does it help?

i figured i would need either LESS lighting or more lighting and a variable density filter to get the depth of field i wanted on a bright set...

I will be honest... you've given me alot to think about... thanks for all the info!

cc

 

[Buck-Beaver]

Some of this comes down to personal choice, budget etc. If a motorized follow focus makes your life easier and you have the budget, go for it!

You know, I did a commercial awhile ago where they had a professional camera package that was fully remote mounted on a motorized dolly jib. That was amazing to work with (even though I spent most of the time under a kitchen counter through the whole shoot), but you need a proper studio space and four person crew to operate that kind of rig. So it's not ideal for everyone in every situation.

There are different ways to create shallow depth of field, but it's mostly about lens choice and aperture. You need a telephoto lens (usually the equivalent of 70mm or longer), you need a wide open aperture and you need the camera to be as close to the subject as possible. Prime lenses are usually better than kit/zoom lenses, but it really depends on the lens.

Here's another Tom Antos video where he demos how to get shallow and wide depth of field properly:

I still think that wide depth of field could be the best solution for your panning shots. I'd have to see an example to understand exactly what the problems you're having are, but it shouldn't be necessary to pull focus in a wide pan unless you're trying to achieve some kind of very specific effect.

I do think - and I believe most people would agree with me - that it's always better to invest in good lights and lenses rather than camera bodies. As a general rule of thumb, I can produce a better image with $2000 worth of lights and lenses on a $400 DSLR than I can with a $2000 camera and $400 worth of lights and lenses.

The best cinematographers don't rely on a lot of toys and fancy gear...they just focus on technique. No one ever watches anything and cares what it was shot on unless they're a shooter themselves.

 

[crazy chris]

To explain the whole panning/autofocus thing a bit more... i would like to be able to track a walking puppet across a 16 foot set and maintain focus on them whether they fall out of my line of focus or not... the more we talk about it ...the more i realize i will probably have to use some form of manual focus.... so im working on that solution


As far as the lighting/lenses...i totally agree.....i will be sinking another 2000 into a permanent studio light set up for each individual set in the space ... and allready have lenses im happy with (may add 24 and 85mm cine lenses to complete the set) so i definitely am not skimping on those aspects...

I just want a quality body that will:

1- not shrink resolution on the field monitors during recording . As puppeteers this is HUGE!! We live and die by our monitored image and its terribly distracting and annoying to have it squashed and stretched (have u noticed this in your shooting?)

2- doesnt heat up- As we discussed ive dealt with this before

3- allow me to use my prime lenses and demonstrate their full potential

4- some good auto features for run and gun

5- deliver a codec my present computer can deal with. though it may not be ready for the silver screen at 4k it will still look better than most puppet videos on youtube.

Ive studied up even more on 4k and would love to implement it into our stuff (if only to record at 4k and downgrade it to 1080 in post) but at this point my computer (though brand new) didnt have the ram it toted on the packaged (4 gigs of the memory is squared away for other uses and is not accessable for video) I may end up investing in an outboard video card or something soon...

Do you have any thoughts on 60d? i was curious if any other puppet filmers use it?

cc

 

[crazy chris]

Just a heads up to anyone reading this...searching for a 4k camera at a reasonable price... i was just studying up on the Sony AX100 which is nicely priced at 2000 dollars... HOWEVER... DO NOT BUY THIS DEVICE FOR PUPPETRY! According the the review i watched... when filming in 4k any external monitoring devices TURN OFF automatically... how broken hearted would that be to find out your fancy new camera is essentially useless for filming puppetry

cc

 

[crazy chris]

Do you have any thoughts on 60d? i was curious if any other puppet filmers use it?

sorry.... TYPO... i meant 60p.... wondering if anyone shoots their puppets at 60 frames per second?

cc

 

[Buck-Beaver]

To explain the whole panning/autofocus thing a bit more... i would like to be able to track a walking puppet across a 16 foot set and maintain focus on them whether they fall out of my line of focus or not... the more we talk about it ...the more i realize i will probably have to use some form of manual focus.... so im working on that solution

Just an aside, but remember that tracking/panning are two different things. With a pan, the camera is stationary and pivots (usually horizontally). A tracking shot involves moving the camera's position. The solution for both is to use a wide angle lens and shallow depth of field.

You should be able to pan across (or track through) a 16 foot wide set and keep everything in focus if you have a wide angle lens and your aperture is stopped down enough to give you sufficient depth of field. If you can't do that, you are either doing something wrong or there is an element of the shot(s) that hasn't been explained.

What f-stop are you typically shooting at? It really sounds like you are getting shallow depth of field because you're shooting with the aperture relatively wide open. If so, just stop down the aperture until you have enough depth of field.

When you want shallow depth of field for stylistic reasons, just switch to a longer lens (or Zoom in if you're using a kit lens). You shouldn't have to re-light scenes for depth of field either (which you mentioned doing earlier). Just change your lens and/or your F-stop.

I just want a quality body that will:

1- not shrink resolution on the field monitors during recording . As puppeteers this is HUGE!! We live and die by our monitored image and its terribly distracting and annoying to have it squashed and stretched (have u noticed this in your shooting?)

2- doesnt heat up- As we discussed ive dealt with this before

3- allow me to use my prime lenses and demonstrate their full potential

4- some good auto features for run and gun

5- deliver a codec my present computer can deal with. though it may not be ready for the silver screen at 4k it will still look better than most puppet videos on youtube.

Ive studied up even more on 4k and would love to implement it into our stuff (if only to record at 4k and downgrade it to 1080 in post) but at this point my computer (though brand new) didnt have the ram it toted on the packaged (4 gigs of the memory is squared away for other uses and is not accessable for video) I may end up investing in an outboard video card or something soon...

In order:

1. I don't completely understand what you're describing, but the 60D does drop its output from 1080p to 480SD when recording. The output image is technically 4:3 because of the sensor size, but it should appear on screen during recording cropped to 16:9 (the overlays should appear over the black bars that crop the image).

If you are getting a very noticeably squashed or stretched image, I would suspect the problem is either your monitors, or possibly an output setting on the camera itself (it's impossible to tell without seeing it myself). Double check all settings on the camera and monitor to make sure something is not amiss. I've shot puppets on the 60D with no issues, aside from the drop in resolution while recording.

The 7D is the best Canon camera in terms of output to a monitor under $2000 imho.

2. Re: heat, I haven't ever experienced that with the 60D even when shooting all day, but it does seem to be a problem with some DSLRs. Are you using generic batteries? They sometimes cause problems because the 60D batteries are chipped. Make sure your Canon firmware is up-to-date. Also, turn the camera off when not in use. Live view mode tends to heat up cameras a lot, and constantly outputting an external signal can generate a lot of heat too. If your camera is always overheating and under warranty, I would get it looked at. That shouldn't be happening if you are using it correctly.

The 60D is actually one of the best Canon DSLRs in terms of not overheating. For example, the 7D is much more likely to overheat because of its dual processors and built-in LCD screen.

3. From a technical standpoint, you can put your lenses on any camera with an EF lens mount. Don't worry about demonstrating the full potential of your lenses, just worry about how to best use them to tell your story visually.

4. Have a look at the 70D. The autofocus is supposed to be pretty good.

Keep in mind there is no one camera perfect for every situation. All cameras and have pros and cons. For example, the 60D has better audio than the 7D, but the 7D is better built and offers superior video output.

Some of your needs are in direct conflict with each other. A good interchangeable lens camera is often not good for "run and gun" style shooting. Most pros use different cameras for different purposes. For a versatile, relatively new DSLR that meets most of your needs I would look at either the 70D or the 5D Mark 3.

Honestly, the 60D is solid and you have good lenses. My advice would be to figure out the video output problem (be sure to identify the real cause of the problem before spending money on a solution) and overheating issue. Then focus on learning how to best use the 60D to its full potential.

 

[crazy chris]

Thanks again for all the vaueable information

I tried a few ways to fix the monitor resolution squash and couldnt seem to figure it out... it happens on the marshall field monitor as well as our other 2 tv monitors...so im not sure if i could pin it down to any of them... any ideas what in camera setting might fix it? i dont mind about the resolution drop at all... its just monitoring... i do however hate the squash we are getting because it sometimes hinders the way puppeteers move their puppets because they are squashed and movements seem faster or awkward on the monitors

honestly...if i could figure that out i could deal with everything else and stick with the 60d for now...

The reason i refered to it as panning is because previously we had done the effect with the jib and it was simple panning...with the length of the jib allowing it to cover that kind of real estate... but yes... if i get my hands on the quad dolly we would be tracking in conjunction with the panning... i will attempt to use the wider angle option and see how it works... as i said... the biggest issue with the wide angle is attempting not to expose the puppeteers below or the limited set ceiling. i will just have to get in really close on the puppets

We cut the 60d off everytime we set up for new shots... its normally on for about 45 minutes...off for 15... sometimes off for an hour if we break for lunch

im also running full led light set up in a wonderfully airconditioned studio space... so the heat in the room is minimal.

cc

 

[Buck-Beaver]

Thanks again for all the vaueable information
I tried a few ways to fix the monitor resolution squash and couldnt seem to figure it out... if i could figure that out i could deal with everything else and stick with the 60d for now...

You might want to ask about this in a camera/DSLR forum, or double check the manual.

the biggest issue with the wide angle is attempting not to expose the puppeteers below or the limited set ceiling. i will just have to get in really close on the puppets

Puppeteers only get exposed because either they are too high (sticking their head in shot) or the shot isn't framed properly. In wide shots, you usually have to position the camera slightly low and tilt upwards. If your camera is set up as described in this article, it's almost impossible to get a puppeteer's head in a shot (sometimes we forget that we just can't shoot puppets like we do regular live action).

14mm may be too wide a lens to shoot a master shot on a puppet set in a studio with a low ceiling. I doubt I'd ever shoot with anything so wide on a puppet set. Moving closer to your subjects may help, but you will have distortion issues if you're not careful.

All I ever shoot puppets with on a crop-sensor camera are a 20mm, 30mm, 50mm and an 85mm (a zoom is handy sometimes too) and I rarely use the 85mm.

It's sometimes really helpful to re-watch the Muppet movies and Sesame Street and pay careful attention to how the shots are framed. They've spent decades figuring out what works best.

We cut the 60d off everytime we set up for new shots... its normally on for about 45 minutes...off for 15... sometimes off for an hour if we break for lunch

im also running full led light set up in a wonderfully airconditioned studio space... so the heat in the room is minimal.

I suspect that might a problem with the camera. A 60D shouldn't do that in my experience. People shoot with those for hours in tropical environments.

 

[crazy chris]

Ive searched and searched for answers on the resolution drop issue...and the only answer i get is confirmation that it happens and confirmation that the only canon dslr that it DOESNT happen on is the 7d

cc