Goths, Punks, Freaks, and Muppets - Is it all Very Wrong?

[matleo]

I agre with Jes about not wanting to see the SS gang (or any of the Mupets) in sexual positions or with drug references. Please don't tarnish my childhood.

But I have to disagree with Cantus Rock. No, seeing them on some punk kids shoes or shirt doesn't bother me at all. I think mainly because there was a girl I went to high school with who was very gothic. REALLY gothic and she was viewed as kind of a freak and people snubbed her and whatnot, and spread rumors and said she was weird, but if you sat and talked to her, got to know her, she was really very friendly and also really quite smart. She had opinions on things and they were hers she wouldn't force 'em down your throat but if you got her talking she could explan why she believed in this or that and she usually had some good points. And she showed general real concern for people andthe world around her. She woudl talk abo things that were important to her, but she would also talkabou things thatwere important to you. It really wasn't about her looking for attention as most people thought. I always wonder where she is in life now cause she really was/is one of the most fascinating people I've ever known. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see Amy now with a Kermit sticker on her black lunchbox or a pair of Gonzo socks at her ankles or soemthing. She's probably looking at it and wondering whatever happened to me.

Morale of the story: you can't judge a book by it's cover. it has very lttle to do with this discussion, but I always liked that story.

--Matt

 

[scarecroe]

Originally posted by Cantus Rock
Jim Henson made these characters with the intent of happiness and humor, and these wannabe-devil children embrace it. I think its degrading to the characters, and to Jim.

How do you feel about Alice Cooper? Ozzy Osbourne? Both of these individuals are representative of similar angles in style as the goth references you've made. Both of them have also worked with the Muppets. What you have to remember is that we're talking about the entertainment world here. For the most part, a lot of the goth stuff is done for show. Shock factor. You don't think Richard Donner or William Friedkin, directors of The Omen and The Exorcist, respectively, endorse Satan do you? If you do, then Jim endorsed the horned one as well since the Alice Cooper episode of The Muppet Show depicted Alice working for him.

True, there are those extremists out there whose message really is further ground into making some kind of evil statement, but for the most part, they're just all about show.

I'm going to watch Buffy now

 

[Gonzo]

I think it's great that these "troublesome kids" have some sort of soft spot for the Muppets, and have some sort of fond memories of them. Also, if you look at the people who actually shop at places like Hot Topic, it's a pretty healthy mix of the Goth kids and the frat boys, "normal" students, comic book geeks--I mean, if we place a limit on who can buy and love Muppet stuff, where's it gonna stop?

I'm glad it's providing an outlet for some new merchandise and providing visibility for the Muppets, who for so much of the last 15 years have been pretty much...underrepresented in the world of pop culture merchandise.

Quinnnnnnnn

 

[EmmyMik]

My story is kind of similar to Matt's (matleo
Matt)...

You can't judge a book by it's cover. You can't judge Goths just because they're "Goth". When I was in high school, I became friends with a couple of people who were into the whole Goth scene (although that's not my cup of tea). But there weren't these "bad" people. They did a lot for the school (student government, SADD, that kind of thing). Last year (at the Senior awards breakfast), they were awarded scholarships for their community service (they helped out at nursing homes). While I was never close friends with them (like I said, the whole Goth thing was never my thing, so I began hanging out with people who have similar interests to mine... cartoons!). If anything, that was a learning experience.

Perhaps the point of my story is that if a Goth type person wears a Kermit shirt, maybe (I'm not saying always, there are some REAL weirdos out there) there is nothing sick and twisted behind it...

 

[grail]

hmm...this thread got back on topic.

how'd that happen?

 

[frogboy4]

I don't think I have ever seen drug paraphernalia with Sesame Street or Muppet Show characters on them but I'm sure there is some out there somewhere. It just isn't very visible and there are many shops in my area that have that kind of stuff in their store windows. If it's some punk kid with a Muppet lunchbox then I find the argument kind of silly, but if you are referring to a device to use narcotics then I completely understand your point. It certainly doesn't make me happy, but I just don't care that much. I don't see how Kids shouldn't be around such parts of town anyway or around people who would abuse substances. I'm kind of wondering what kind of merchandise is being targeted here. Seen lots of Scooby stuff of that sort but he is kind of promoted that way sometimes.

As for goths and punks - they're people too and some of the ones in my life have been the sweetest people I have ever met. I object to a mean person wearing a Kermit shirt!

 

[Cantus Rock]

How do you feel about Alice Cooper? Ozzy Osbourne? Both of these individuals are representative of similar angles in style as the goth references you've made. Both of them have also worked with the Muppets. What you have to remember is that we're talking about the entertainment world here. For the most part, a lot of the goth stuff is done for show. Shock factor. You don't think Richard Donner or William Friedkin, directors of The Omen and The Exorcist, respectively, endorse Satan do you? If you do, then Jim endorsed the horned one as well since the Alice Cooper episode of The Muppet Show depicted Alice working for him.

Okay here is my take on Alice and Ozzy: Alice = good, Ozzy = Bad. But see, its not goths I have a problem with. They can do whatever they want. Its just when they take the innocence and turn it 360, theres my problem. Okay Alice Cooper. I think really he didn't believe a **** thing he was pushing during his career. He, like Marylin Manson, was just saying what he said for the shock value and the fan base. The man now plays golf at a country club and is a very nice person (my father met him, he said he was a sweet guy). Okay, Ozzy. He's just an idiot. Also, if you listen to his latest song, he also states he isn't anything he claimed to be in his famous years. "I'm not the Anti-Christ, or the Iron Man," are some of the lyrics. And with his new show the Osbournes, how could any sane person believe he's the devil?! Of course Richard Donner or William Friedkin don't endorse satan, but its a little different from the kids who really really REALLY do, which are the ones this topic is mostly about.

True, there are those extremists out there whose message really is further ground into making some kind of evil statement, but for the most part, they're just all about show

Yes, I totally agree. But I think the show is tarnishing to the reputation of the Muppets. I don't know how I'd feel if I was a normal average joe who kind of liked the Muppets, and saw some punk in a ripped Gonzo shirt. See what I mean? Now let me reply to all the other people who need them (No hard feelings to anyone. All the people with gothic friends, thats cool. I AM NOT AGAINST GOTH(ism?). I just don't like the use of the Muppets.)

-Matt

 

[Cantus Rock]

Ya know, I think you guys were just lucky enough to find nice gothic people to hang with and talk to. The goth kids in my are are a bunch of scum. The lifestyle and the people in it turned a straight A student into a heroine addict (and he was my best friend regardless of how he dressed up until he took it too far). Now granted it was on his own free will that he became an addict, but that's what I'm talking about. Those are the kinds of kids I see sporting Electric Mayhem merch. Drop-out, crack bindging, hole-in-the-head punks wearing Electric Mayhem shirts!! So I respect that the gothic people you all knew were cool, but you've gotta see it from my point-of-view. I think that's whats been bugging me about this post that I couldn't put my finger on. Go to a mall. Talk to one of them. I bet ya they won't be the same as you remember your friends being. The book judging will continue until I can meet a freak who has half a brain in the head he was given.

Sorry about the rant, and I don't mean to offend any of my fellow Muppet fans. I'm trying to be very cautious not to.

-Matt

 

[FellowWLover]

Originally posted by grail
hmm...this thread got back on topic.

how'd that happen?

I'll take credit for that. This seemed like it was a sincerely posted thread that could evolve into a decent topic for discussion. I was interested to hear what people had to say, and not as interested in the pitch for goth Muppet figures. So sue me.

 

[frogboy4]

i'd like to see janice in black lipstick!