Sesame Workshop Trying To Have It Both Ways(Bert/Ernie issue)

[beaker]

Yeah, well they say Glee is a "family-friendly" show as well, and you got gay people galore on that show.

Really, prime-time isn't family-time anymore like it was back in the 50s, 60s, and early-to-mid 70s; maybe shows like the aforementioned are "tamer" than others, but I'd argue about the family-friendly atmsphere of them, otherwise, why are they rated like "TV-14" and such?

Well there you go, Glee which is very gay friendly yet wildly popular amongst many American families. I think by now most people, even churchgoers, kind of just chuckle at the fundamentalist attitude on gays. Israel, which has long been a very religious conservative nation and still is in some regards, is now immensely pro gay in a lot of its attitudes and laws. So things change. I actually see gay people used in more normal family friendly settings on tv now then before when it was more of a "gag" or cheap angle.

 

[beaker]

@Dr tooth:

1. Yeah I couldnt get into Will And Grace. For far too long it felt like gay men were portrayed as these kind of judgemental snip-snap charactatures. While Ellen and the very gay friendly Roseanne treated gay people as normal characters, Hollywood in the 90's only wanted stereotypes. Stereotyped black people, latinos, etc. Modern Family to me is a very special sort of show, because it's one of the few tv shows Ive seen that I find hillarious in ways usually only hard tv-14 comedies can be...while it also deals with the normalacy of divorced people and other situations once considered taboo(interracial marriages, gay couples, etc)

I really cant get into shows like Friends, or even Zooey Deschenel's new show...I cant relate to those types of people. I can absolutely relate to the Seinfeld and Big Bang Theory characters though. I think relating is a part of everyone's funny bone, as much as absurdist situations come into play

2. Indeed, as much as many Muppet fans consider the movies/shows/etc "canon", the point of the Muppets is there is absolutely no canon.

There is no "magic" on Fraggle Rock. Kermit openly talks about how Fraggle Rock was filmed at York studios in Canada. Pepe, Gonzo, etc in interviews talk about how they are all actors, and the movies are just movies. Kermit and Piggy have a relationship like one of my best friends does. Where its on again/off again, love/hate, but they always get back together and never get married.
The Muppet Babies do not exist. They exist as a cartoon and within the world of Muppets Take Manhattan and Muppet Family Christmas, but the real origins of the Muppets are that they are all actors who got discovered and met randomly. Gonzo talks about his real life in some interviews Ive seen, as does Rizzo.

So yeah, we kind of have to piece together bits from interviews, stuff performers have said and then glean certain reoccurring themes from the shows and films. Its amazing to go back to the 1955-1969 period, because its such a completely different time. I mean Sam and Friends...it still blows my mind. Kermit, Harry the Hipster, Yorick...it was like a weird late night cable access show long before cable. I think a lot of people forget Rowlf was the main Muppet star next to Kermit, and there has always been a kind of sadness associated with Rowlf that can be seen in a lot of post JH shows and films. In the Cooking with Cora Rowlf talks about how he'll take any job now. To me that's canon...how Rowlf has been kind of pushed to the back like an old 80's wrestler or movie star

 

[Drtooth]

@Dr tooth:

1. Yeah I couldnt get into Will And Grace. For far too long it felt like gay men were portrayed as these kind of judgemental snip-snap charactatures. While Ellen and the very gay friendly Roseanne treated gay people as normal characters, Hollywood in the 90's only wanted stereotypes. Stereotyped black people, latinos, etc. Modern Family to me is a very special sort of show, because it's one of the few tv shows Ive seen that I find hillarious in ways usually only hard tv-14 comedies can be...while it also deals with the normalacy of divorced people and other situations once considered taboo(interracial marriages, gay couples, etc)

The funny thing is, I actually said it was tantamount to Blackface years ago and everyone thought I was mad. It was such a horrible show. I can take (even love) the shrillness of Cosmo in the fast paced pop culture heavy Fairly Oddparents, but when it came to the shrillness of Jack and Whatever Megan's character was called in the pop culture heavy Will and Grace, I wanted to pull my hair out or run out for some Excedrin. It's like Excedrin Migraine #452: Will and Grace episode. But the last straw with that show? It made even John Cleese unfunny. John Cleese is one of the people in the entertainment industry I feel is a personal god... right up their with Weird Al, Jim Henson, and various voice actors like Rob Paulsen and Jim Cummings. To see John in such a painfully unfunny state was TORTURE!

Indeed, as much as many Muppet fans consider the movies/shows/etc "canon", the point of the Muppets is there is absolutely no canon.

It seems that there are a lot of nice juicy tidbits that the performers like to come up with. Like the Scooter "my mother was a parrot, we don't know about my dad, it was during the war." aside And as fans of a franchise we love seeing tiny weird little things that come out of the characters mouths that speak to their origin. But are they official, or do we just piece them together?

As far as Muppet character ages are concerned, they're written to represent a certain group, sure... but how many of them actually say what age they are? I know Elmo is heavily promoted as 3 1/2 years old (their main audience AND a reference to an old Looney Tunes gag)... Ernie said he was six that one time in a video. No one else really says anything. And to me, only Elmo, Zoe, Big Bird, Prairie Dawn, Robin the Frog, and Snuffy are kids (babies like Natasha and Alice pretty much are a given). Oscar's in his late 50's to me, Grover has to be at least 16 to have to be able to have that many jobs...If Ernie and Bert are kids, and Ernie's 6, then Bert's an awkward teenager... but somehow it feels like he's older. And how old would you say the Fraggles are? Teens? 20's? Boober's gotta be in his late 20's-mid 30's to me. Matt? Probably anywhere from 40-60. It's character interpretation. The things that aren't explained are open to interpretation, and people see what they want to see because it helps them relate to the characters.

 

[beaker]

It's funny when Kermit says he's 56...Im like, was he a tadpole on Sam and Friends? He's in his 70's then. But to be fair, should we be applying cartoon age(Bart, the eternal 10 year old) or real world age? Some characters seem to grow more complex. Piggy certainly became more beautiful(she looked gosh awful to me in the first few TMS seasons) Some characters seem to get younger.

My biggest problem, since we are talking about representing different people(we have elderly, middle aged, toddler, child, teen and adult muppets) is there is hardly any female leads. "Poogy" is going to be the only new female?

If I was to have made the new Muppet film, Id have a late teen Skeeter, Pepe as one of the main characters and created a few other uniquely new muppets(maybe even bring in some jim henson hour or muppets tonight guys)

 

[mr3urious]

@Dr tooth:

1. Yeah I couldnt get into Will And Grace. For far too long it felt like gay men were portrayed as these kind of judgemental snip-snap charactatures. While Ellen and the very gay friendly Roseanne treated gay people as normal characters, Hollywood in the 90's only wanted stereotypes. Stereotyped black people, latinos, etc. Modern Family to me is a very special sort of show, because it's one of the few tv shows Ive seen that I find hillarious in ways usually only hard tv-14 comedies can be...while it also deals with the normalacy of divorced people and other situations once considered taboo(interracial marriages, gay couples, etc)

Brian and Steve from The Sarah Silverman Program are also two great non-stereotypical gay characters. They're just fat, nerdy stoners who happen to be gay.

 

[D'Snowth]

All this talk of stereotypes, it brings to mind that episode of Seinfeld where Jerry mentions that people used to think he was gay because he's a thin, single, neat-freak (and in later seasons, voluntarily shaves his chest), and did a bit about how if a man is big, fat, sloppy, and lazy, he must be (straight and) married. Come to think of it, stereotypes have pretty much changed somewhat since those days, because thanks to those same Hollywood nutjobs who force us to worship like size 0 stick figure women want women to worship silky, smooth, hairless men, so now, it's like men HAVE to shave their body hair so as to not to repulse women (and apparently women are happy about that, thinkig it gives men an idea of what they have to go through by constantly shaving their legs and armpits so as not to repulse men)... yeah, well, it'd take me HOURS to shave that much, I've got hair in places I didn't even know hair could grow, but that's besides the point (and I wouldn't shave like that anyway, because men ARE SUPPOSED TO HAVE BODY HAIR).

As far as character ages and changes are concerned, it all depends mostly on the writers, and/or the performers; I mean I could got into a long-winded talk about that, but I don't think I will.

 

[Drtooth]

My biggest problem, since we are talking about representing different people(we have elderly, middle aged, toddler, child, teen and adult muppets) is there is hardly any female leads. "Poogy" is going to be the only new female?

The Muppet show only had like a handful of female characters anyway, most of them unmemorable one season characters. And even then, most of the females were performed by males. Something like Sesame Street with more influential little kids watching the show is where that's far more important. Skeeter's a stubbornness on the part of Henson/Disney to refuse to acknowledge Muppet Babies as anything other than a little show that made merchandise. I'd love to see a Karen Prell or Leslie Cararra puppetered version of Roger and Amy's version of adult Skeeter, but that's not gonna happen.

And who's to say Poogy's actually a woman?

 

[beaker]

The Muppet show only had like a handful of female characters anyway, most of them unmemorable one season characters. And even then, most of the females were performed by males. Something like Sesame Street with more influential little kids watching the show is where that's far more important. Skeeter's a stubbornness on the part of Henson/Disney to refuse to acknowledge Muppet Babies as anything other than a little show that made merchandise. I'd love to see a Karen Prell or Leslie Cararra puppetered version of Roger and Amy's version of adult Skeeter, but that's not gonna happen.

And who's to say Poogy's actually a woman?

I don't care how it was back on TMS, Im just saying its 2011...wheres the cool female characters? I LOVE Zondra, Janice, Mildred...but speaking role female characters are far and few between. And Skeeter could be presented simply as Scooter's sister, doesnt have to acknowlege or tie into Muppet Babies at all. Fraggle Rock had two very strong female characters that were extremely prominent. I think Prell and a lot of the newer/veteran JHC and SW women performers could come up with some amazing teen or college aged muppet female characters. If I was working for Disney, I'd be pitching all sorts of fun ideas at least for online video stuff. Pepe is like the only post JH character that has had any spotlight or success

 

[CensoredAlso]

its 2011...wheres the cool female characters?

You can say that about most TV and movies.

 

[Drtooth]

I don't care how it was back on TMS, Im just saying its 2011...wheres the cool female characters?

Because, making any character that isn't a white straight guy is tough. Any character flaw would send shockwaves out to overly sensitive not white males. It's no win. People want representation, but they hate when they're written as anything that could be viewed as a stereotype so we get flat generic characters. And then they complain about how flat and generic and white they are. Look at what happened with Princess and the Frog. She was almost named Maddie, and some group said "AAAH! No! That's subservient maid's name!" Then they changed it to something else and it was like "That's a WHITE girl's name." And yet, they have those extremely racist Metro PCS commercials.

As for females, why do you think SW has such a hard time with adding female Muppets to the show? Same reason. If they're too girly or flawed or something, someone's going to complain about how much of a stereotype or bad influence they are, and when it comes to adding females to a TV show, they all have to be tom boys or kickbutt princesses. I can't believe I complained about Kristin Wiig's version of Lola Bunny now. She was a kickbutt princess they added to a movie to get more girls to see it. And they insisted that she has to be Bugs's equal, but better than him. I can never say a kind word about Venus DiMilo, who killed the franchise and DIDN'T need to be added. They always insist on adding positive female leads to male friendly shows (that girls actually watch anyway), but they can have bimbo airheads as leads in shows for girls and no one ever complains about it. Look at Bratz and Maxie's World. I don't care what pro-social values they fling out there, it's all about buying fashion dolls. That's why I like stuff like She-Ra and Pepper Ann... strong female leads in female shows. Why are the girls better in boy's shows?

Above all, other than the Moopets and Walter, there's really no room in the project for more new Muppets, male female or whatever. If a new show happens, THAT would be the oppertunity to add in more females, hopefully they'll try to get Skeeter (Roger and Amy style) into the cast that way.