"The Draidle Game"

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But how could they have said that Jesus came to be the savior, and then done the Jewish part of the show where they'd have to say, no, actually he's still a good guy, but not THE savior

Christmas and Hanukkah are two completely different, unrelated stories. I don't see where there would be a problem discussing the two separately in the same special. And in fact other shows like Blue's Clues actually managed to do it quite well.

 

[Drtooth]

Christmas and Hanukkah are two completely different, unrelated stories. I don't see where there would be a problem discussing the two separately in the same special. And in fact other shows like Blue's Clues actually managed to do it quite well.

Exactly. I really stand by how SS handled the subject matter. They didn't exactly say either was part of the one true religion, nor did they deny it. They took the perfect middle ground in between PC and heavy handed religious education. Remember, everything in Sesame Street is supplemental. True education comes just as much outside of the program as it does inside. SS may teach counting and basic math, but it's up to a teacher to turn that into math skills. Again, I', just proud that they used the meme "Happy Holidays" to actually SHOW more than one holiday.

And it really seems ever Hanukkah special I've ever seen was to teach non-Jews what the heck their Jewish friends are doing.

Personally, my favorite special that deals with both is the Pepper Ann episode (which name I can't remember) where she overhears her mother talking to someone about how someone "must make a choice." Now, she's Jewish on her mother's side of the family and Christian on her divorced father's side of the family, and misconstrues what she overheard to be about her... and she THINKS she has to chose between the two. instead of explaining the heck out of everything, the show deals with PLOT! A plot where we KNOW what both holidays are about. To me, the best specials don't need Santa or biblical stories to get the point across. We know them. I want to see how they apply. I want something either real or REALLY weird!

 

[StreetScenes]

Christmas and Hanukkah are two completely different, unrelated stories. I don't see where there would be a problem discussing the two separately in the same special. And in fact other shows like Blue's Clues actually managed to do it quite well.

i think you're missing my point. my point isn't that the particular stories are incompatible. my point is that you have two options if you present jesus in the role of savior. either, you say he was, or you say christians believe he was. the first implies your belief system is the "right" one, the second implies your belief system is a fairy tale. then, you'd have to explain what the concept of a savior is, because it is certainly completely alien to my belief system. and is a 4 year old really going to understand the concept of a savior and sin? because christian rhetoric is so infused into the lives of believers outside of church that they often forget (or have never had to think about) which concepts are easy for everyone to understand and which concepts are specific to their religion and very complicated and strange to other people.

sesame street's special is not trying to teach what christmas means to some grown-ups. it's trying to explain multiple holiday rituals and what they mean to kids who celebrate them with their families. they mention jesus because that's part of what christmas is to some of the kids who celebrate it. but "savior" probably isn't part of what christmas means to many 4 year olds, even ones who will think it's important when they grow up. they're not wimping out and being pc, the concept of jesus as a savior is just not related to the message of the show, and even if it was, since it's a particularly christian belief, there's probably no way to address it through tv to eight million toddlers in a way that doesn't disrespect either christians or non-christians.

 

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instead of explaining the heck out of everything, the show deals with PLOT!

Definitely, I think that's ultimately a lot more useful. Have the characters just be the characters and have a story that relates to these ideas. Rather than doing a big lecture on each religion that feels overly elaborate and forced.

my point is that you have two options if you present jesus in the role of savior. either, you say he was, or you say christians believe he was. the first implies your belief system is the "right" one, the second implies your belief system is a fairy tale.

As a Christian I personally have no problem with the language "Christians believe he was." It's a fact. It doesn't negate my feelings on the matter. Children live in the real world and they do encounter people who disagree with them. They have to learn that they can disagree but still believe what they want to believe.

 

[ISNorden]

Of course, the multiple-beliefs discussion opens a can of worms for parents who don't celebrate any of the holidays in Elmo's special. Imagine a 3-year-old asking, "Mama--how come we don't do Christmas, Hanukkah OR Kwanzaa?" That's a lot tougher question than "How come there's no one like us on TV?" which I could answer with, "Only a few people in the whole world believe what we do, or know that anyone else does. It may not sound fair, but TV is there for most people."

 

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Of course, the multiple-beliefs discussion opens a can of worms for parents who don't celebrate any of the holidays in Elmo's special. Imagine a 3-year-old asking, "Mama--how come we don't do Christmas, Hanukkah OR Kwanzaa?" That's a lot tougher question than "How come there's no one like us on TV?" which I could answer with, "Only a few people in the whole world believe what we do, or know that anyone else does. It may not sound fair, but TV is there for most people."

OK I know I'm not a parent yet, but I have little sympathy for parents whinging about these things. I don't mean specifically holidays, just different beliefs in general. This is life, the real world, and your kid has to learn to live in it, rather than complain everytime it doesn't conform to them. Kids do have to learn that it's not the end of the world if they're different.

 

[StreetScenes]

Children live in the real world and they do encounter people who disagree with them. They have to learn that they can disagree but still believe what they want to believe.

Well I agree with that. But how do you teach that to a mass audience of young kids through tv? Sesame Street has always done such a great job with teaching kids to respect other people even if they choose to like or do different things. That's exactly what the special does--it asks kids how they celebrate, and focuses on family & ritual. It has nothing to do with WHY the PARENTS celebrate it. Modeling social interactions and familiarizing kids with the concept that people do different stuff is one thing. Discussing belief is a completely different thing--I don't know if most 4 year olds can understand the concept of faith, or the concept that different people have different beliefs, much less understand it from an hour tv show. It's a good first step, to have kids understand and respect that other people do different things, will help them later or on an individual basis learn that people believe different things, too. And if parents want to watch with their kids & add more in-depth explanations, isn't that the way Sesame Street always hopes families watch any episode of the show?

The concept of a savior is one of belief. They can't just throw the word around without explaining it, and "sin" and "belief." As familiar as the concept is to adult Christians, it's not for non-Christians and most of the Sesame Street-aged audience including those in Christian families. It's not a self-evident concept that's easy to explain--it would take a lot of time, and it would be out of place in the type of show the special is, so it's not fair to criticize them for not bringing it up.

 

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I don't know if most 4 year olds can understand the concept of faith, or the concept that different people have different beliefs, much less understand it from an hour tv show.

Well we shouldn't underestimate children. They understand things, just in their own way.

And if parents want to watch with their kids & add more in-depth explanations, isn't that the way Sesame Street always hopes families watch any episode of the show?

Right, that's what I said before, that I thought Christmas Eve on Sesame Street did that very well in addressing "faith" in a more subtle way. Let's face it, Sesame Street used to be a deeper show.

I think we're having some misunderstanding. I wasn't criticizing the Elmo's World special, I thought what they did was fine. I was just frustrated with people being so cautious about discussing religion on TV.

The concept of a savior is one of belief. They can't just throw the word around without explaining it.

Well OK I should clarify, I didn't think they needed to use the word "Savior" either. It's not like children who are being raised Christian have never heard it before! Sometimes it feels like Sesame Street assumes they're the first ones to tell kids these things, and that's simply not the case!

Now the Muppets did have some very obvious religious imagery in the John Denver Christmas special and I thought that was fine. That was a more grown up special and it worked.

 

[StreetScenes]

Right, that's what I said before, that I thought Christmas Eve on Sesame Street did that very well in addressing "faith" in a more subtle way. Let's face it, Sesame Street used to be a deeper show.

sigh. yes it did. the more sesame street i watch, the more it feels like the recent seasons have returned to very basic curriculum content with nothing about characters and personalities, the way the first two or three seasons were when they were worried about funding and their image, and before they realized they could do more.

I think we're having some misunderstanding. I wasn't criticizing the Elmo's World special, I thought what they did was fine. I was just frustrated with people being so cautious about discussing religion on TV.

okay. point taken. from my perspective, i'm frustrated when it's all christian-centric on tv. problem is these days it's all sound bytes and no one wants to have a long & serious enough discussion to address any topic thoughtfully.

Well OK I should clarify, I didn't think they needed to use the word "Savior" either. It's not like children who are being raised Christian have never heard it before! Sometimes it feels like Sesame Street assumes they're the first ones to tell kids these things, and that's simply not the case!

then they will understand it from the perspective of their outside exposure & not need it from sesame street. it was probably others on this thread who brought up the absence of that word as a problem. but it's not like non-christians have heard it or had it explained to them before.

i don't know, maybe it is an issue for sesame street to address, in a separate special, with a message of tolerance, since other shows either shy away or blow up non-issues into foci for rabid intolerance. but if they cave to youtube users on cleavage, there's little hope for even a thoughtful presentation of religion...

 

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okay. point taken. from my perspective, i'm frustrated when it's all christian-centric on tv. problem is these days it's all sound bytes and no one wants to have a long & serious enough discussion to address any topic thoughtfully.

See I think it was that way a few years ago. But more recently instead of being partial to one religion, TV just tries to ignore religion, period. And they claim they're trying to be tolerant, but franticly hiding away the concept of religion is hardly a mature way of dealing with the situation. As you say, it deserves more thoughtful discussion than that.