The Bible and Love and Christians

[frogboy4]

And I hope you care just as much now when other religions continue to practice of stoning in modern times. As opposed to religions that haven't practiced it for thousands of years.

But we're only supposed to criticize one particular religion here, right?

I'm not trying to be hostile, just pointing it out.

Agreed. But those cultures don't make excuses for it or pretend that it stems from anything but ignorance and fear, particularly of the opposite sex. It's so transparent.

Lol, maybe. Well one more Tolkein joke. You said you'd rather read The Hobbit? How many women are in THAT book?

They were out doing lady things. Isn't that what y'all do? Kidding. Yeah, you've got me there. Leaving out women in any book always seems a bit...ahem...well, gay to me. I don't know. Maybe they'll find a diva to sing the soundtrack for the Bible.

I must add that religion-based legislation always reminds me of when Jesus was accused of working on the sabbath. God's laws are those for people's hearts, not some arbitrary do's and don'ts to be enforced from the state.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Agreed. But those cultures don't make excuses for it or pretend that it stems from anything but ignorance and fear, particularly of the opposite sex. It's so transparent.

Um, Christians are saying they've never done a stoning, nor has their religion practiced it in living memory. That's making excuses for it? Sounds more like proclaiming innocence against accusations of something they have not done or support.

And I'm not really sure of your point. At least other cultures are honest when they stone people? At least they're not fibbing while they torture and kill? Is that more admirable somehow? And where is it that they say "I'm only doing this because I'm ignorant and afraid?" They say they do it because they feel that's what God wants.

People who practice such things are dangerous in the here and now, yet you only want to complain about a culture that hasn't done the practice in thousands of years. I'm still not getting your logic.

 

[frogboy4]

Um, Christians are saying they've never done a stoning, nor has their religion practiced it in living memory. That's making excuses for it? Sounds more like proclaiming innocence against accusations of something they have not done or support.

And I'm not really sure of your point. At least other cultures are honest when they stone people? At least they're not fibbing while they torture and kill? Is that more admirable somehow? And where is it that they say "I'm only doing this because I'm ignorant and afraid?" They say they do it because they feel that's what God wants.

People who practice such things are dangerous in the here and now, yet you only want to complain about a culture that hasn't done the practice in thousands of years. I'm still not getting your logic.

Of friggin' course not! We were having a great discussion and then here you go again shoving odd words in my mouth that make me appear to have said something foolish under the guise of a misunderstanding. Let's stop that right now, go back and I'll pretend you didn't just do something completely insulting.

Stoning wasn't okay then and it's not okay now. But how does one justify its occurrence at any point of time? My point is that many Christians cite these atrocities as artifacts of the Old Testament while there are many other archaic bits of that portion Bible that should be followed. This is one of many reasons for disbelieving the Bible as a whole. Too many asterisks, double meanings and many top scholars still disagree on key points of scripture. I'm glad Christians don't approve of stoning. Nobody should. But again -- this thread isn't about how middle-eastern religions are dictating gay civil rights in America so I'm not discussing the Koran. I have lots to say about that, but not in this thread.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Look of course I don't think you're supporting stoning. I was pointing out what I felt were potential flaws in your argument, that's all. There's no "guise of misunderstanding' so please don't put words in my mouth either.

I'll admit I was a little annoyed and I apologize for my emotions getting heated. It's just that as much as I am bias in favor of Christianity at times, you at times seem bias against it. Neither one of us has been entirely fair and balanced.

It's like what I said before, I support gay marriage, but that doesn't mean I'll agree about other parts of the Bible being flawed. You feel that way and that's fine; that's your opinion and I respect it. But it is not my opinion. That's all. I honestly was not trying to insult you. : )

 

[frogboy4]

Look of course I don't think you're supporting stoning. I was pointing out what I felt were potential flaws in your argument, that's all. There's no "guise of misunderstanding' so please don't put words in my mouth either.

I'll admit I was a little annoyed and I apologize for my emotions getting heated. It's just that as much as I am bias in favor of Christianity at times, you at times seem bias against it. Neither one of us has been entirely fair and balanced.

It's like what I said before, I support gay marriage, but that doesn't mean I'll agree about other parts of the Bible being flawed. You feel that way and that's fine; that's your opinion and I respect it. But it is not my opinion. That's all. I honestly was not trying to insult you. : )

Sorry I got heated too.

I don't endorse any religion and all ancient texts seem equally as creepy to me. I was just pointing out the one that corresponds to this thread and that's the one I know most about too.

I will admit this little tidbit of truth as an interesting admission and not a big point of discussion for this thread.

I have one particular Muslim friend that is problematic in so many ways. He's very sweet in a lot of ways, but has a disgraceful view of women and also happens to be gay. It was my embracing attitude that largely nixed plans of a third date. I don't see him that much either.

I have another friend who believes in psychic abilities to heal the individual and I have a hard time with that too, but it makes him happy and has provided much personal growth. I'm proud of him for that!

My issue with religious texts, including the Bible, is that they require much research, study and insight to make sense and there always seems to be weird loose ends that even the best scholars have difficulty explaining. I'm a guy who sets out his clothes for the next day before going to bed. Not in an anal way, mind you. It's just there in case I'm running late in the morning. It makes me sleep better knowing that. I like clean and concise. I live by that as much as possible because the complicated things will come on their own. That's why I don't invite the Bible into my thinking anymore. Makes things much simpler. I wish this for more sections of my life.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Sorry I got heated too.

Thanks, I guess at times we all need to keep things in perspective.

I don't endorse any religion and all ancient texts seem equally as creepy to me. I was just pointing out the one that corresponds to this thread and that's the one I know most about too.

Yeah I understand; I honestly don't mind people being non-religious. It more bothers me if I feel like only one group is being targeted, no matter what the group is. But I get you when you say you're not trying to do that. : )

I have another friend who believes in psychic abilities to heal the individual and I have a hard time with that too, but it makes him happy and has provided much personal growth. I'm proud of him for that!

I can identify; I know people who are into astrology and I used to get annoyed by the idea, thinking it was nonesense. But then I realize a lot of people think the same about my beliefs, lol. So if something like astrology gives comfort to someone (in a non harmful way) it's fine with me.

My issue with religious texts, including the Bible, is that they require much research, study and insight to make sense

Yeah it's true. See I went to a college where the priests were very into education and I learned a lot about the history of the cultures in the Bible and that helped make sense of a lot of things. Ironically, this particular order of priests are often criticized for speculating about the Bible, instead of just accepting the established norms, lol. But I admired them for that. It's important to make sure your faith is an educated one.

 

[frogboy4]

Studying the texts was once fun for me. I used to consider Genesis as a parable; like the 6 days of creation being modeled after lengthy periods of evolution that took place over millions of years. That's why fish and foul came first and the mammals came later. I viewed Eve being made out of Adam's rib and her being the temptress that led to his and mankind's downfall as a reflection of societal subservience at the time that section was written. That's where the wheels start to fall off the wagon for me. The idea of seeking out independent knowledge should only strengthen one's resolve, not threaten it. There were many times I met one-on-one with prominent church elders to discuss many hot-button issues and the little ones too. I used to find fascination in such exploration, but even though the themes spoke to me, the text never did. I then explored other theological texts and was equally as disappointed. I'm not a fan of absolutism. We must all pick a side or we're weak. You either have to be completely for or against something. You must believe in the Bible as a whole or you do no believe it at all. This sort of idea disturbs me. When nuance and thoughtfulness are abandoned for the "company line" and this is something not specific to just one theology, but to most religions. At least that's how it has always appeared to me. And somewhere along the line I became quite offended that little of this effort of understanding was lent to me and other gay people. We are largely written off without anyone listening. It's rare to hear dissenting Christian voice and I appreciate your boldness in that.

 

[ilovemusic]

I'm happy there are some people left who still give about love, peace and happiness. It's just like, in our country something strange happens. Cristians hurt Muslims who hurt Jews who hurt... You know. Vicious circle. I don't understand. They all believe there's... someone above there. We all belive there's someone above. What's the matter them?

 

[CensoredAlso]

I used to consider Genesis as a parable; like the 6 days of creation being modeled after lengthy periods of evolution that took place over millions of years.

That's what they said in Inherit the Wind. Always made sense to me; I never understood why that didn't catch on more!

I'm not a fan of absolutism. We must all pick a side or we're weak. You either have to be completely for or against something. You must believe in the Bible as a whole or you do no believe it at all. This sort of idea disturbs me. When nuance and thoughtfulness are abandoned for the "company line" and this is something not specific to just one theology, but to most religions.

It is annoying that religious institutions are often about laying down the law. They don't trust their followers enough to understand the faith for themselves. I see the same kind of "Group Think" in political parties. You're either a Republican or a Democrat. If you haven't chosen a side, you're a weak moderate.

I became quite offended that little of this effort of understanding was lent to me and other gay people. We are largely written off without anyone listening. It's rare to hear dissenting Christian voice and I appreciate your boldness in that.

Yeah I can understand that. It's like when I have to listen to sermons about the shortage of priests. Um, maybe their wouldn't be a shortage if you let women be priests!

I have known some priests who get annoyed at the idea of even just having debates about faith. That there should be one voice explaining the "correct" facts. That's why I liked the priests at my college; they weren't as adverse to thinking outside the box, or at least talking about it.

 

[Bannanasketch]

This is coming from someone who isn't into religious marketing (evangelism), but keep in mind that these items come from a religion about someone, not your relationship. To me, relationships are intimate. When I hear anti-gay rhetoric, invariably the "I don't want to look at that" sentiment comes up. Well, here's the thing ... I don't like looking at ANY relationships, even religious ones. You feel tight with JC? Cool. It's just that He doesn't strike me as the kind of Guy who would want you to describe your relationship in public, considering He asked you not to. Yes, I understand the Great Commission ... but it also flies in the face of how Jesus acted. Considering JC was trying to keep Himself out of public scrutiny, I consider the Great Commission to be a well-meaning but OOC concept from His more zealous followers. I'm of the impression that if Jesus loves you ... He'll let you know. Real Truth doesn't require marketing.

I respectfully disagree. I look at it kind of like this. Let's say you have a brand new car. you got it as a gift and it's the coolest car you've ever had. Now, are you going to want to just keep that car in your garage and not touch it? Maybe, just clean it and keep it shiny but never driving it around? Or would you go out and show it to everyone you know? I feel that's how Jesus' love is. His gift of salvation is the greatest gift I've ever received and I want everyone else to know that love. I want everyone else to recieve that gift and that's what Jesus wants too. He died on the cross for everyone but some people decided not to accept his gift. I feel that Jesus wants us to spread his message but we can still have a personal relationship with him in which he changes us from the inside out. Also, I just happened to be typing this while listening to the song "Jesus Freak" by DC Talk. They have some lyrics in that song that are about this very topic. You should listen to it.

The problem is that they are merely taking rhetoric already present and taking it to its logical conclusion. If the bad guys agree with you ... something's wrong with the picture.

That's where you're wrong. The bad guys don't agree with me. I absolutely DON'T believe that God hates gays. I DON'T believe that God hates America. I DON'T believe that God is killing American soldiers because America tolerates homosexuality. All of those points that the WBC uses as hate speech, I completely disagree on. So, you are wrong on that point.

Technically it isn't. You got it from some old dead dude half a planet away.

I don't quiet get what you're saying here...

Like calling things sins when they aren't? Have you noticed it's only AFTER A&E eat of the fruit of the Tree of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL that they start making crap up? This suggests that we should take all booming voices calling things sins with a grain of salt. A man isn't to lie with another man as he would a woman. If you think about it for a bit, you realize the sin is impossible to pull off, so everything else the guy who mentioned it said should be looked at real closely. I mean, things like stoning your children, slavery, and considering women property USED to be moral. Why has this changed if it is God's word?

The Bible is my source for everything in my life. Sin is defined as "estrangement from god" meaning anything that keeps us seperated from God. God tels us what and what not to do and what sins are. Now, there are a lot of Laws in the old testament that aren't moral today. Also, there is a difference between Sin and Law. Sin has always been constant and hasn't changed but the Law has. All of those laws you mentioned were the "old covenant". When Jesus came, as the Perfect Law, he set in place the "new covenant" that wiped away all of the old laws that were put in place. Jesus is the new law for us.

Anyways, I'm kind of getting tired of typing so i'm going to stop here and I'll come back tomorrow to comment on the second half of Redpiggy's comments and also Frogboy's comments.