The Bible and Love and Christians

[frogboy4]

So even though every religion (and secular group) has its share of dangerous fanatics, we're only going to criticize one of them? Sorry but if all religions are indeed equal, then they all deserve the same amount of criticism.

Not at all! Believe me, I have much to say about the fanatical fringe all religions and causes. Much! Not a fan of fanaticism of anything of the non-Muppety variety. Incidentally, my second bf was kicked out of Queer Nation and Act Up a couple decades ago for being too obnoxiously militant! I've got stories, but that's another journey for another time and place.

This is a focused topic that poses the question about Christians. There are many American Christians who believe that they should vote against gay marriage and other social gay issues just because they disagree with it in their own lives. The sad part is - - this is a popular notion not held only by the fanatical fringe. I don't believe in Christianity or any other organized religion, but that doesn't mean I'll vote to curtail religious freedoms. In fact, I'd be front and center supporting it! Only the militant fanatics in my surroundings would vote against religious freedom, but there are a lot of non-militant, non-fanatical Christians who believe it's their right to rob me of my civil rights as a gay person. This probably is not you, but why is it that way with so many other Christians? That's the question posed at the beginning of this and it has yet to be really discussed. That's why it keeps going 'round.

 

[CensoredAlso]

. This probably is not you, but why is it that way with so many other Christians? That's the question posed at the beginning of this and it has yet to be really discussed. That's why it keeps going 'round.

From my perspective, the reason it keeps going around is because you tend to only talk about Christians and what they do wrong. I would be more than willing to criticize Christianity if I thought every other religion and secular group was going to get equal criticism. I want it to be fair. That's all.

 

[RedPiggy]

Yeah, but in Frogboy's defense, one glance at the title should tell you which group is going to get all the rants in the posts. I mean, we COULD talk about others, but one thing is that I doubt we'd get actual members of said groups to participate much and the other thing is that it's technically off-topic since thread's title is pretty clear-cut.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Yeah, but in Frogboy's defense, one glance at the title should tell you which group is going to get all the rants in the posts. I mean, we COULD talk about others, but one thing is that I doubt we'd get actual members of said groups to participate much and the other thing is that it's technically off-topic since thread's title is pretty clear-cut.

If that's the point of the thread, to rant against one group, then I personally can't keep going with the conversation. I don't mind if everyone else does, that's their right. And I respect everyone here. But there's really nothing more I can say if the thread has these kinds of parameters.

Not that anyone should care whether I post on this thread or not, lol. Just adding my two cents. Again, my respect to everyone here.

 

[frogboy4]

From my perspective, the reason it keeps going around is because you tend to only talk about Christians and what they do wrong. I would be more than willing to criticize Christianity if I thought every other religion and secular group was going to get equal criticism. I want it to be fair. That's all.

Did you watch the YouTube clip?

The froggin' thread's about how Christians can show love to non-believers without enforcing their moral views on them socially or politically.

I didn't come up with the mission statement here, I'm just upholding it and things keep getting way off the topic here. Please feel free to start another thread about how Christians are criticized. I might actually step into that one and you'd be pleasantly surprised at my thoughts on the subject, but please do not confuse or reshape this thread.

It is a popular belief that American Christians need to vote against gay civil rights at the ballot box and to even discriminate in social situations. If that weren't the case then this thread wouldn't exist. I'm not talking extreme cases of prejudice, fanaticism or violence, but there are some otherwise very sweet, Christan people who believe it's their duty to witness in such a way that impacts the rights of others. I'm not saying all or most, but many. That's what this thread explores and what I keep asking and if you have any on-topic remarks - - shoot!

 

[CensoredAlso]

The froggin' thread's about how Christians can show love to non-believers without enforcing their moral views on them socially or politically.

And I feel I do that in my personal life, and so many other Christians I know. But those people aren't being talked about here. It's all about the ones who screw up.

Please feel free to start another thread about how Christians are criticized. I might actually step into that one and you'd be pleasantly surprised at my thoughts on the subject, but please do not confuse or reshape this thread.

I wouldn't do that. Believe it or not, I do believe in live and let live. If people want to critcize one group, that's their right. And if that's the point of this thread, to criticize one group, then I'll leave you to it.

All I have been doing is trying to see both sides. If that's not the point of this thread, then I can move on. I really don't want to get into an argument, I respect everyone here. But I think I'm done with this thread. Please continue. I'm no longer here to confuse things.

 

[frogboy4]

And I feel I do that in my personal life, and so many other Christians I know. But those people aren't being talked about here. It's all about the ones who screw up.

Not true! This is about reaching across the isle specifically with gays and Christians to reach a greater understanding. Gay people's civil rights are being oppressed in this country. Sure, there are other groups oppressing one another here and abroad, but this is about "The Bible, Love and Christians" and how that's been affecting gays in America.

I wouldn't do that. Believe it or not, I do believe in live and let live. If people want to critcize one group, that's their right. And if that's the point of this thread, to criticize one group, then I'll leave you to it.

I'm very glad you do! Again, this thread is not criticizing Christians as a group. Or, at least I am not doing so. I am wondering just what it is that keeps us from the state of agreeing to disagree politically and socially without need to tread on one another. How can we reach an understanding so that we both may thrive equally and pursue our own heartfelt happiness without having to change the minds of the other?

All I have been doing is trying to see both sides.

Respectfully, I don't believe that to be completely accurate. I've noticed you've played devil's advocate in a lot of cases and it's something that's usually appreciated, but this is a serious subject that came about in part as a reaction to suicides due to bullying against gay youth while adults in charge knew and did nothing.

If that's not the point of this thread, then I can move on. I really don't want to get into an argument, I respect everyone here. But I think I'm done with this thread. Please continue. I'm no longer here to confuse things.

Again, this is about how an understanding can be reached between the two communities and what is obstructing that. I actually believe your confusion about the topic and the course of discussion along the way is a big part of that. You've offered a wealth of interesting perspectives that I value and it would be a shame for you to move on from the thread, but if you've exhausted your views on the subject then I understand.

 

[CensoredAlso]

I'll try to express this the best way I can. In this issue, I am your ally. I have no problem with gay marriage. But I am also a Christian and of course I'm going to come to its defense at times. Honestly, I feel a little like a child in the middle of a divorce, trying to deal with divided loyalties, lol. I support the "parent" who has been wronged, but I still love the other "parent" as well. Maybe I don't always divide my time between the two of you perfectly; maybe I'm bias at times. I'm only human. And maybe other times I will say things you don't want to hear or disagree with. I can't help that. But other times I will support your point of view and I have. I have said the Bible did not necessarily say homosexuality was immoral. And I have said that it's inexusable when gay teens are cruelly rejected by their parents and society.

So that's where I'm coming from and I hope you can understand that. If you want understanding, then you're just going to have to trust me.

 

[frogboy4]

I'll try to express this the best way I can. In this issue, I am your ally. I have no problem with gay marriage. But I am also a Christian and of course I'm going to come to its defense at times. Honestly, I feel a little like a child in the middle of a divorce, trying to deal with divided loyalties, lol. I support the "parent" who has been wronged, but I still love the other "parent" as well. Maybe I don't always divide my time between the two of you perfectly; maybe I'm bias at times. I'm only human. And maybe other times I will say things you don't want to hear or disagree with. I can't help that. But other times I will support your point of view and I have. I have said the Bible did not necessarily say homosexuality was immoral. And I have said that it's inexusable when gay teens are cruelly rejected by their parents and society.

So that's where I'm coming from and I hope you can understand that. If you want understanding, then you're just going to have to trust me.

Thanks for saying that and I certainly do trust that's where you're coming from. And believe it or not, I'm just about the same as you are on this but with the other configuration.

I think it should be noted that over 90% of Americans identify as Christians while statistically around 10% are LGBT. It's even more important to note that even though it appears to be either-or, there is actually a lot of cross-over.

 

[dwmckim]

This is about reaching across the isle specifically with gays and Christians to reach a greater understanding. Gay people's civil rights are being oppressed in this country. Sure, there are other groups oppressing one another here and abroad, but this is about "The Bible, Love and Christians" and how that's been affecting gays in America.

<snip>

I am wondering just what it is that keeps us from the state of agreeing to disagree politically and socially without need to tread on one another. How can we reach an understanding so that we both may thrive equally and pursue our own heartfelt happiness without having to change the minds of the other?

I think the greatest opportunity to build that bridge lies with those who are fully a member of both sides. Too many people want to enforce the message that "gay" and "Christian" are opposites when in fact not only is that a false relation but what often gets left out of the larger picture is the huge amount of people that are gay AND Christian and fully comfortable with both.

My personal life's journey has led me to aetheism. The last time i stepped into a Church to worship (not counting the times i was there solely to "play the gig" such as the period where i was brought into Phoenix's largest Catholic Church's choir as a ringer - it was a paid position!) was Easter 2004. But for a good decade, i was largely involved with several churches here that either had a mostly gay congregation or were openly affirming. I really wish everyone had the opportunity to attend at least one service in a church with a mostly gay congregation; it would open a whole lot of eyes as per how much common ground there is and how much the idea of the two being opposite sides is a myth.

Since i haven't been involved with that scene for about seven years, any and all work that's been done by this community hasn't been on my radar and i'm sure many excellent works and projects have been undertaken that i'm totally unaware of. But i'd really love to see that community step up to the plate and be a huge visible force. Anyone who is in such a church should choose their own "Invite a Christian to Church" day where they have a member of their family or friend or coworker or anyone else they may know who's having a hard time grasping the concept witness it first hand. It's an especially powerful message since not only is it viewing those who cross the bridge but seeing the intense love and worship and heart and goodness coming from a community that has been beaten down by the opposing message and perhaps kicked out of their prior churches, families, or faced other kinds of persecution in God's name coming together to worship.