The Bible and Love and Christians

[CensoredAlso]

Thanks for saying that and I certainly do trust that's where you're coming from. And believe it or not, I'm just about the same as you are on this but with the other configuration.

I think it should be noted that over 90% of Americans identify as Christians while statistically around 10% are LGBT. It's even more important to note that even though it appears to be either-or, there is actually a lot of cross-over.

Hi, sorry I took so long to reply, something came up. I'm glad what I said made sense, lol. Yeah there definitely more blending than people realize.

I'm glad we were able to talk this out somewhat.

 

[dwayne1115]

Wow there are sure some stong points on both sides.

 

[Bannanasketch]

Okay, so after a while of not posting in this thread, I finally decided to come back and read through all the replies and now I want to reply myself. Here's my opinion on many of the things mentioned:

First of all, I just want to start off by saying that I am not part of any religion. I am part of a relationship. A relationship with my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ and my creator. I believe that he is the son of the living God and that he died on the cross and rose again for my sins. I believe that it is my duty to follow the Great Commission (Matthew 28:16-20) and tell the world the Good News of Jesus' love. I strive to be like Jesus in my everyday life and I often fail every single day buti know that I am forgiven of my sins and that God will carry me through my life with his unconditional love.

I don't believe that Christianity should be a group that hates and condemns and judges. That is not what Jesus taught us. He told us to love everyone equally. Now, we usually cannot do that becuase we are sinful people but we must strive to love others. It sickens me how there are groups out there that try to claim they are 'Christian' but don't follow what Jesus taught about love. For example, the Westboro Baptist Church. Don't even get me started about how much they disgust me with their hate speech. I know that I should love them like Jesus tells us to love everyone but I can still find it hard. After all, I'm only human.

I don't think I've really made it clear about my view on homosexuality. I am against homosexuality and same-sex marriage because it is a sin. Now, I may offend you, frogboy, but this is my view. I believe that all sin, including homosexuality, is of the devil. Satan uses the power of suggestion to get us to do things against God's will. I beloeve that if the devil suggests to a person that they are gay and if they do not have the holy spirit in their hearts, thay can have those homosexual thoughts stay in their head until they actually believe they are gay. I believe he does this for every sin. Again, this belief may offend some people but this is just my view.

I don't believe that gay and lebian people should be judged or condenmed for their sins. Straight people deal with their own sins just as much as gay people. Christians even deal with addiction, temptation, and all other kinds of sins. So, for Christians to condemn a gay person because they have the sin of homosexuality. that person could easily just condemn the Christian for their own sins. I think it's okay to tell a person that homosexuality is wrong but not in a way that shows judgement. I hate the sin not the sinner.

About the debate between faith and deeds, I believe James sums it up very well in James 2:14-26. It's basically telling us that neither faith nor deeds are more important, but instead that they work together with each other. You cannot have one without the other. I've always thought of it through a saying I came up with: you aren't saved because you do good deeds, rather you do good deeds because you are saved.

Now, those are my views on some of the topics that have been brought up. I may have offended some people and I apologize for that but these are my views. You may think that what I say is complete BS and I will accept that and respect your views. Please respect mine.

 

[RedPiggy]

Okay, so after a while of not posting in this thread

Welcome back. Wondered where you went.

First of all, I just want to start off by saying that I am not part of any religion. I am part of a relationship. A relationship with my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ and my creator.

That's pretty much where I am nowadays.

I believe that he is the son of the living God and that he died on the cross and rose again for my sins. I believe that it is my duty to follow the Great Commission (Matthew 28:16-20) and tell the world the Good News of Jesus' love.

This is coming from someone who isn't into religious marketing (evangelism), but keep in mind that these items come from a religion about someone, not your relationship. To me, relationships are intimate. When I hear anti-gay rhetoric, invariably the "I don't want to look at that" sentiment comes up. Well, here's the thing ... I don't like looking at ANY relationships, even religious ones. You feel tight with JC? Cool. It's just that He doesn't strike me as the kind of Guy who would want you to describe your relationship in public, considering He asked you not to. Yes, I understand the Great Commission ... but it also flies in the face of how Jesus acted. Considering JC was trying to keep Himself out of public scrutiny, I consider the Great Commission to be a well-meaning but OOC concept from His more zealous followers. I'm of the impression that if Jesus loves you ... He'll let you know. Real Truth doesn't require marketing.

For example, the Westboro Baptist Church. Don't even get me started about how much they disgust me with their hate speech.

The problem is that they are merely taking rhetoric already present and taking it to its logical conclusion. If the bad guys agree with you ... something's wrong with the picture.

I am against homosexuality and same-sex marriage because it is a sin. Now, I may offend you, frogboy, but this is my view.

Technically it isn't. You got it from some old dead dude half a planet away.

Satan uses the power of suggestion to get us to do things against God's will.

Like calling things sins when they aren't? Have you noticed it's only AFTER A&E eat of the fruit of the Tree of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL that they start making crap up? This suggests that we should take all booming voices calling things sins with a grain of salt. A man isn't to lie with another man as he would a woman. If you think about it for a bit, you realize the sin is impossible to pull off, so everything else the guy who mentioned it said should be looked at real closely. I mean, things like stoning your children, slavery, and considering women property USED to be moral. Why has this changed if it is God's word?

I don't believe that gay and lebian people should be judged or condenmed for their sins.

But you are, which is why people get irritable. It's a little like saying you don't believe in arson while you're striking the match.

Christians even deal with addiction, temptation, and all other kinds of sins. So, for Christians to condemn a gay person because they have the sin of homosexuality. that person could easily just condemn the Christian for their own sins.

Actually, the Christian has it worse, because they judged someone for WHAT they are. Do you agree with the bible that all us women are evil temptresses just trying to destroy your little paradise and should be dealt with accordingly?

I hate the sin not the sinner.

This can't work with homosexuality because that is a biological orientation, not an act.

You cannot have one without the other. I've always thought of it through a saying I came up with: you aren't saved because you do good deeds, rather you do good deeds because you are saved.

It's a bit more complicated than that. All you have to do is find an "evil" person who gives to charity or a "good" person who goes around making others' lives miserable and the line gets very, VERY blurry. After all, you consider yourself a good person, yet can't let modern discoveries about a certain matter deter you from judging (and yes, that's what you're doing ... and what's worse, you're judging using someone else's bias, not even your own) an entire group of people. Our government likes to brag about how awesome and righteous it is, yet will unapologetically support dictators and criminals as long as we get money out of it. You know who showed me love when my father tried to have my brother and I taken away from our mother? Not the "good" people, but the villainous students who bullied even the faculty. It was when I realized the good people could be wrong that I developed my current philosophy. I try to judge the tree by the fruit, and that ends up with a lot of surprises.

 

[frogboy4]

Walking in someone else's shoes prevents stepping on toes...and rights!

Okay, so after a while of not posting in this thread, I finally decided to come back and read through all the replies and now I want to reply myself. Here's my opinion on many of the things mentioned:

First of all, I just want to start off by saying that I am not part of any religion. I am part of a relationship. A relationship with my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ and my creator. I believe that he is the son of the living God and that he died on the cross and rose again for my sins. I believe that it is my duty to follow the Great Commission (Matthew 28:16-20) and tell the world the Good News of Jesus' love. I strive to be like Jesus in my everyday life and I often fail every single day buti know that I am forgiven of my sins and that God will carry me through my life with his unconditional love.

I don't believe that Christianity should be a group that hates and condemns and judges. That is not what Jesus taught us. He told us to love everyone equally. Now, we usually cannot do that becuase we are sinful people but we must strive to love others. It sickens me how there are groups out there that try to claim they are 'Christian' but don't follow what Jesus taught about love. For example, the Westboro Baptist Church. Don't even get me started about how much they disgust me with their hate speech. I know that I should love them like Jesus tells us to love everyone but I can still find it hard. After all, I'm only human.

I don't think I've really made it clear about my view on homosexuality. I am against homosexuality and same-sex marriage because it is a sin. Now, I may offend you, frogboy, but this is my view. I believe that all sin, including homosexuality, is of the devil. Satan uses the power of suggestion to get us to do things against God's will. I beloeve that if the devil suggests to a person that they are gay and if they do not have the holy spirit in their hearts, thay can have those homosexual thoughts stay in their head until they actually believe they are gay. I believe he does this for every sin. Again, this belief may offend some people but this is just my view.

I don't believe that gay and lebian people should be judged or condenmed for their sins. Straight people deal with their own sins just as much as gay people. Christians even deal with addiction, temptation, and all other kinds of sins. So, for Christians to condemn a gay person because they have the sin of homosexuality. that person could easily just condemn the Christian for their own sins. I think it's okay to tell a person that homosexuality is wrong but not in a way that shows judgement. I hate the sin not the sinner.

About the debate between faith and deeds, I believe James sums it up very well in James 2:14-26. It's basically telling us that neither faith nor deeds are more important, but instead that they work together with each other. You cannot have one without the other. I've always thought of it through a saying I came up with: you aren't saved because you do good deeds, rather you do good deeds because you are saved.

Now, those are my views on some of the topics that have been brought up. I may have offended some people and I apologize for that but these are my views. You may think that what I say is complete BS and I will accept that and respect your views. Please respect mine.

I understand exactly what you're saying. This has already been covered territory, but you're merely stating your beliefs and that's not offensive to me. I also thank you for clarifying that this is your view at the end of your post because it's exactly what makes for the sort of healthy discussion that I've been wanting to read.

The one thing that does disturb me, and this is not necessarily your post, is that so many Christians feel the need to continually inform others of their beliefs as though we haven't heard them before. Somehow trying to change our minds. I'm never out to change anyone's mind about whether or not gay people exist. I just want the unfettered right to live my life as a proud gay man without the constraints of the those who disagree with me.

Also, I understand the Christian premise of sin - that homosexuality is viewed as a sin and that we're all sinners. However it must be acknowledged that I and most non-Christians do not accept that premise, therefore we find it offensive to be thrown in with the same group as addicts and other such people. Please Christians everywhere - non-Christians do find it to be judgmental when you declare that "we're all sinners" while speaking to us. That might be true and what you believe, but most people tune you guys out when sin and the devil are so liberally tossed about in the conversation. This is maybe something to be brought up, and with more tact, once you know they want to hear more.

Even though that is the Christian belief there must be a great measure of tact employed into such statements if they are intended to be digested by any "non believer". I'm certain Christians don't enjoy Atheists continually citing scientific data to refute portions of the Bible or claiming spirituality as a psychological disorder. We must be able to consider how it is to walk in the others' shoes. I used to consider myself a Christian and I'm quite aware of the life and prejudice they face, but it's nothing compared to what I've faced as a gay person.

I can respect that Christians have a different point of view on many things including gay people. My issue is with then Christians (or any voting block) feel that their view makes it right to deny my civil rights. That's it.

Here's a good example of exactly what I'm talking about:
Imagine for a second that we have the same laws and legal system, but Christianity isn't the main religion of the United States. Now let's say that there's legislation that denies Christian couples from adopting children because there are some groups in this country that find that particular religious view inflammatory and unsuitable for minors. Heck, this is America. You can draft up any kind of crazy proposition that you want, but supporting something like that would be unfair. Just because I don't believe in Christianity doesn't mean that I should have the ability to deny any Christian person and their family a right to live and thrive under their faith. The same goes for gays in my opinion. Since when do we have to legitimize our beliefs by imposing them on others? If you don't agree with gay marriage then don't marry a gay person, but what gives you the authority to deny that right to others?

I think we should protect the right to agree to disagree without penalizing one another for our beliefs. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Actually, the Christian has it worse, because they judged someone for WHAT they are. Do you agree with the bible that all us women are evil temptresses just trying to destroy your little paradise and should be dealt with accordingly?

Um OK, you guys may say I'm making excuses again. In this case, I don't care, lol. The Bible does have some instances where women are the corrupt ones. The book was written thousands of years ago and by men. So it's no surprise. However Jesus makes it clear that he has respect for women and they play a huge part in his life and mission. So it's simply not true that all the women in the Bible are evil.

Our government likes to brag about how awesome and righteous it is, yet will unapologetically support dictators and criminals as long as we get money out of it.

And just to show I'm not only playing on one side of the team, I agree with this statement. The U.S. complains about terrorism, but the country certainly had a hand in causing it over the years with its support of dictators.

 

[frogboy4]

This is coming from someone who isn't into religious marketing (evangelism), but keep in mind that these items come from a religion about someone, not your relationship. To me, relationships are intimate. When I hear anti-gay rhetoric, invariably the "I don't want to look at that" sentiment comes up. Well, here's the thing ... I don't like looking at ANY relationships, even religious ones. You feel tight with JC? Cool. It's just that He doesn't strike me as the kind of Guy who would want you to describe your relationship in public, considering He asked you not to. Yes, I understand the Great Commission ... but it also flies in the face of how Jesus acted. Considering JC was trying to keep Himself out of public scrutiny, I consider the Great Commission to be a well-meaning but OOC concept from His more zealous followers. I'm of the impression that if Jesus loves you ... He'll let you know. Real Truth doesn't require marketing.

Could it be this particular shade of aggressive evangelism that gives some particular Christians the notion that it's okay to not just share but to enforce their beliefs on others?

Technically it isn't. You got it from some old dead dude half a planet away.

Like calling things sins when they aren't? Have you noticed it's only AFTER A&E eat of the fruit of the Tree of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL that they start making crap up? This suggests that we should take all booming voices calling things sins with a grain of salt. A man isn't to lie with another man as he would a woman. If you think about it for a bit, you realize the sin is impossible to pull off, so everything else the guy who mentioned it said should be looked at real closely. I mean, things like stoning your children, slavery, and considering women property USED to be moral. Why has this changed if it is God's word?

There's a lot of crazy sounding stuff in the Bible. It amuses me that Christians quickly inform me that they don't believe that part anymore when some of those strange portions happen to be from the Old Testament. It's still in there as part of the freaky history of it all! That's one of the reasons I left the faith. The Bible is a dense and convoluted book that requires connecting seemingly unrelated bits of information to explain other awkward verses. And all of this comes from a translation of specific scrolls that were chosen as the divinely inspired texts among many other conflicting ones. It all just seems like a huge contrivance - a rigged deck that I just can't respect. That's my personal view. There are places in the Bible where it says kind things about women and children and then there are times when it says awful things too. I found it all a waste of time and would rather just read The Hobbit!

But you are, which is why people get irritable. It's a little like saying you don't believe in arson while you're striking the match.

That's kind of close to what I'm getting at. The "I don't want to be judgmental, but my belief in God's judgment is what justifies enforcing His law into your life." sort of argument. I have a hard time believing God would be that passive aggressive.

 

[CensoredAlso]

There's a lot of crazy sounding stuff in the Bible. It amuses me that Christians quickly inform me that they don't believe that part anymore when some of those strange portions happen to be from the Old Testament. It's still in there as part of the freaky history of it all!

True, but would you rather they ignored or white washed history? Would you rather they still agreed with those portions? Every culture keeps (or should keep) a record of its past, even its less than positive moments. Christianity is not weird in this way.

The Bible is a dense and convoluted book

So is Tolkein's Lord of the Rings, but I still find plenty of reasons to enjoy it, lol. (And I'm saying this as a fan of the books, btw).

 

[frogboy4]

True, but would you rather they ignored or white washed history? Would you rather they still agreed with those parts? Every culture keeps (or should keep) a record of its past, even its less than positive moments. Christianity is not weird in this way.

You're right, but I still feel like the attempt when addressing it is to justify the unjustifiable. I don't care how rotten someone's wife or child behaves or whether it occurred before or after Jesus walked among us - - there is no justification for stoning them. It's Old Testament so I am including both Judaism and Christianity in this statement.

So is Tolkein's Lord of the Rings, but I still find plenty of reasons to enjoy it, lol. (And I'm saying this as a fan of the books, btw).

Hehe. That was my little joke about how convoluted the religiously themed Tolkein books are too, but still far less than the Bible. Maybe they should have split it into three books?

 

[CensoredAlso]

You're right, but I still feel like the attempt when addressing it is to justify the unjustifiable. I don't care how rotten someone's wife or child behaves or whether it occurred before or after Jesus walked among us - - there is no justification for stoning them. It's Old Testament so I am including both Judaism and Christianity in this statement.

And I hope you care just as much now when other religions continue to practice of stoning in modern times. As opposed to religions that haven't practiced it for thousands of years.

But we're only supposed to criticize one particular religion here, right?

I'm not trying to be hostile, just pointing it out.

Hehe. That was my little joke about how convoluted the religiously themed Tolkein books are too, but still far less than the Bible. Maybe they should have split it into three books?

Lol, maybe. Well one more Tolkein joke. You said you'd rather read The Hobbit? How many women are in THAT book?