The Bible and Love and Christians

[CensoredAlso]

In the Sharia law world of Islam, women are strictly 2nd if not 3rd class citizens.

This is terrifying to me and I don't think people are taking it seriously enough, they don't want to believe it's really that bad or they think it's not our place to judge. I mean it's good to be tolerant, but not tolerant towards the oppressors!

Though it's nowhere near as bad as Sharia law, as a Catholic I am continually frustrated by the Church's stubborn insistence that women can't be priests. Especially when there actually are a growing number of Catholics, but a shrinking number of priests. They're only hurting themselves with this practice.

the kind of behavior seen in say, late 70's New York City's gay scene. Even a lot of veteran gay rights activists will say that whole scene lead to a lot of early graves.

I think it's true that people often do drugs and other reckless things because they're in pain and want to forget the reality they're living in. This is true of anyone, regardless of sexual orientation. But I can particularly understand members of the gay community at that time wanting to escape a world that was very unwelcoming. Of course we're all responsible for our own behavior, but it is also important to recognize all factors involved.

 

[RedPiggy]

This is terrifying to me and I don't think people are taking it seriously enough, they don't want to believe it's really that bad or they think it's not our place to judge.

It's not my place to judge Islam, but its adherents. It's the same with Christianity vs Christians. To me, there is no difference between keeping a woman covered from head to toe in the back room and keeping a woman unemployed and pumping out babies over here. I fail to see this as a religious problem and more of a social one. People use God as an excuse to do things they just wanted to do.

 

[CensoredAlso]

It's not my place to judge Islam, but its adherents. It's the same with Christianity vs Christians. I fail to see this as a religious problem and more of a social one. People use God as an excuse to do things they just wanted to do.

Believe me I'm the least judgmental person, my friends say I'm no fun at gossip sessions, lol. But when it comes to violent oppression of human rights, I will judge all day long. I understand that the religion itself doesn't preach these things and I understand that there are Muslims who protest such practices and that's great. It's not about judging a religion or not, that's purely academic. It's about facing a very real problem in the culture.

To me, there is no difference between keeping a woman covered from head to toe in the back room and keeping a woman unemployed and pumping out babies over here.

There's a difference when you have women being told they can't show their bodies in public (often on pain of death), yet men can. And when you're allowed to stone women for adultery in an even more cruel way than a man would be. Even liberal commentators have been saying that the Middle East is keeping itself from being any sort of major power in the world in part because of its refusal to allow women to contribute to their society.

And here in the U.S. I certainly can go to work if I want to and refrain from having babies if I want to. And if my boyfriend or husband doesn't like that, he's getting dumped. And I'm Catholic (I know we have the stereotype of having a ton of children, but I'm an only child, heh). But women are not guaranteed these things in many parts of the Middle East. That's the difference.

 

[Bannanasketch]

*walks in* *bumps thread*

 

[CensoredAlso]

Say, does anyone remember that 1985 film Ladyhawke? A sort of humorous Fantasy film starring Matthew Broderick as a sort of impish pickpocket who teams up with a knight type guy called Navarre and also a mysterious woman played by Michelle Pfeiffer? I always had vague memories of seeing it as a kid, but was finally able to see it for real a couple years ago. Really is a gorgeous film, albeit known for having a rather bizarre soundtrack, but remember this was the '80s!

But anyway, one thing I've always liked about the film was the rather witty "conversations" Broderick's character Phillipe has with God as he attempts to be a better person (or at least rationalize his naughty behavior, lol). Something about it is just very familiar and realistic. I'm not ashamed to admit when I pray, I'm occasionally inspired by this film, lol.

Phillipe (stuck on a ledge): Lord, I will never pick another pocket again as long as I live I swear it. But here's the problem... if You don't let me live, how can I prove my good faith to You? If You've heard me, this ledge will remain as steady as a rock, and that thing coming at me won't be what I think it is. If it is, there is no hard feelings of course... but I'd be very disappointed...

****

Phillipe (after pickpocketing, again): I know I promised, Lord, never again. But I also know that YOU know what a weak-willed person I am.

****

Phillipe: "You won't regret this, Lord! I'm a wonderful person!"

****

Phillipe: I told the truth, Lord! How can I learn any moral lessons when you keep confusing me this way?

****

Soldier: Where is the woman?
Phillipe: She flew away.
Soldier: I said where is she? !
Phillipe: God's truth! She flew away!
Soldier: If you don't... (is then shot to death by Navarre's crossbow)
Phillipe: Always pays to tell the truth, Lord. Thank you! I see that now!

****

Imperius: I fully expect to meet you at the Pearly Gates, little thief, and don't you dare disappoint me.
Phillipe: I'll meet you there, Father... even if I have to pick the lock. ; )

 

[TheMonsterAteMe]

I have a new video up!
I am a Christian who is Conflicted on how to view Gay Marriage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dGHLo1tZ7Y

 

[frogboy4]

I have a new video up!
I am a Christian who is Conflicted on how to view Gay Marriage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dGHLo1tZ7Y

I can agree with the heart of what was said.

I feel that we can all support equal rights without personally condoning the application of those freedoms. The problem is that there are some religious fundamentalists that believe that the granting of particular civil rights that fall out of Biblical teaching will somehow negatively encroach on their lives whether it be something as extreme as a plague of locusts, something as inflammatory as terrorist attacks or something as simple as forcing their churches to perform gay marriages to retain tax exempt status. These things are ludicrous to me, but are nonetheless commonly used arguments.

If one doesn’t believe in gay marriage, then don’t marry a gay person. There are so many rights being denied that cannot be achieved without marriage, but I’m not as concerned about it these days because gay marriage will likely become a reality in all 50 states within the decade. It’s just depressing to see such resistance from pious people.

As far as the sin part goes...well, if a man cheats on his wife, divorces her and remarries then under Biblical guidelines he is committing adultery no matter how many times he repents. He must either go back to his first wife or remain chaste for the remainder of his life. That casts people like family values Republican Catholic Newt Gingrich in an immoral light several times over if he believes in the Bible. But see, his marriage shouldn't be my concern just as a gay couple's shouldn't be his. And that's the point I guess. I find Newt a despicable human being, yet he has that freedom in this country...as long as he pays his other two ex-wives half...or half of half of half. Man, it's confusing. I don't know how that all works. I only want to get married once.

This summer marks 20 years that I've been an out gay person and I've seen many things change for the better.

 

[RedPiggy]

On another site, it's almost become something of a game to bet how long it takes for some anti-gay ranter, whether clergy or politician, to be in the news with some embarassing story. Recently, it was a preacher known for lecturing folks in New Orleans. He got caught with his pants down (he says he was peeing) in front of a children's playground ... with children present. *applauds sarcastically* I'm fully convinced the most hardcore ranters are having some issues themselves. And while Christianity teaches us to love one another as we love ourselves, some flavors of Christianity focus so much on how much we all suck that it really teaches self-loathing and, really, what can we expect? Of course they are going to hate others ... they can't even stand themselves!

Oh well ... I'm from a broken home ... no one I know of has had a "'til death to us part" marriage except for earlier generations ... and I don't think even the ones that made it to that point where happy all the time. I got to the point where I just can't hear a "marriage is sacred" rant without laughing. The only issue I have with gay marriage nowadays is that I kinda feel like it's like wanting to buy the Happiness Hotel. Seems like way too much trouble for so little in return, to me, LOL.

 

[GonzoLeaper]

To reply to heralde, I am somewhat familiar with the 1985 film Ladyhawke - in that I've heard of it before and I had a vague idea of the plotline- I know I've seen promotional pictures with Matthew Broderick in them before.
It's been on my list of movies to see at some point.
I like the quotes about prayer from the movie- interesting. Yeah, I don't know if those are the best things to say to God- lol.
But there is an honesty to them that reminds me some of the Psalms. Psalms 6 and 30 particularly come to mind. "Will the dead praise You, Lord?" - Essentially this is a cry to God for salvation from enemies and is it's pointed out- I can't praise You when I'm dead. (Of course, I can praise You in Heaven- but I think the point here is that the death of David at the hands of his enemies wouldn't bring praise to God- it's like he's saying that he needs God to show up and defeat his enemies and show His great power.)

Phillipe (after pickpocketing, again): I know I promised, Lord, never again. But I also know that YOU know what a weak-willed person I am.

I think there are numerous Psalms that would espouse this feeling. Psalms 8 and 51 and 77 come to mind.

Imperius: I fully expect to meet you at the Pearly Gates, little thief, and don't you dare disappoint me.
Phillipe: I'll meet you there, Father... even if I have to pick the lock. ; )

Cute line of dialogue- especially given Phillipe's status as a pickpocket.
Of course, it reminds me of a question asked in Michael W. Smith's "Cross of Gold" song when questioning why someone wears a cross of gold- "Are you intending to pick the lock of Heaven's gate?"
Theologically, I would have to disagree with Phillipe at this point as there is only One Way into Heaven- and Jesus is the key.
But otherwise, this movie sounds like it has a lot of great lines and great illustrations of honest (and sometimes not so honest) prayers to God. Now I'm even more curious about seeking this movie out. Thanks.

 

[GonzoLeaper]

On another site, it's almost become something of a game to bet how long it takes for some anti-gay ranter, whether clergy or politician, to be in the news with some embarassing story. Recently, it was a preacher known for lecturing folks in New Orleans. He got caught with his pants down (he says he was peeing) in front of a children's playground ... with children present. *applauds sarcastically* I'm fully convinced the most hardcore ranters are having some issues themselves. And while Christianity teaches us to love one another as we love ourselves, some flavors of Christianity focus so much on how much we all suck that it really teaches self-loathing and, really, what can we expect? Of course they are going to hate others ... they can't even stand themselves!

Oh well ... I'm from a broken home ... no one I know of has had a "'til death to us part" marriage except for earlier generations ... and I don't think even the ones that made it to that point where happy all the time. I got to the point where I just can't hear a "marriage is sacred" rant without laughing. The only issue I have with gay marriage nowadays is that I kinda feel like it's like wanting to buy the Happiness Hotel. Seems like way too much trouble for so little in return, to me, LOL.

I think you have a good point. I think a lot of people that are very against something and preach hard against it sometimes (not always) revile at it so much because they see it in themselves as well or at least see the potential for falling to it again- and know that they want to avoid this.
This does not mean that everyone who preaches hard against homosexuality is necessarily dealing with this particular sin themselves- but to some degree we all deal with sin. I think some perhaps are more susceptible to some than others- i.e. some are tempted more towards some sins than others. Yeah- that's probably a better way to say it- because we are all susceptible to every sin. And as James 2:10 points out, once we break the law at any one point, we're guilty of breaking all of it.
We should love one another as we love ourselves. Jesus definitely taught that. I don't think He ever taught self-loathing though. He did teach us to revile sin though (Jude 1:22-23 and Mark 7:14-23 and Mark 9:42-50) The Christian church should teach that everyone is fallen and sinned- but we can't neglect the wonderful, amazing grace of Jesus Christ, who died and rose to pay for all of our sins! That is the Good News of The Gospel- that God loves us so much He sent Christ to save us all!
I'm sorry that you have not seen good examples of marriage in your life. It is meant to be until death do us part- what God has brought together, let no man separate. And in quoting Genesis 2:24, Jesus did make it clear that God's model for marriage is for one man and one woman for life. "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and the two shall become one flesh."
(Matthew 19:1-12 is a good reference for this. Jesus addresses marriage and divorce here, as well as celibacy.)
Although every marriage is hard and requires a lot of work to keep it going, and it does bring a lot of heartache and tough moments- there are also numerous wonderful things to be said for marriage and all the wonderful joyous moments it brings as well. (Ecclesiastes 4:7-12 talks about the folly of being alone and having no one to lean on whereas marriage brings a husband and wife together to lean on each other and first and foremost- to lean on the Everlasting Arms.)
Ecclesiastes 9:9 says that a man should enjoy life with his wife throughout his days here on Earth as it is one of the pleasures in life that God gives us. Proverbs 31 gives a beautiful description of the wife of noble character. She brings her husband good and not harm all the days of her life.
Proverbs 18:22 says that he who finds a wife finds what is good and receives favor from The Lord. And Proverbs 5 talks about rejoicing in the wife of your youth.
And of course, there's also the whole book of Song of Songs (or Song of Solomon). This is a great picture of what marriage should look like- as well as a reflection of the relationship God has with His people. He loves us all with a passionate love and desires to be with us. And much as Cheap Trick says, He wants us to want Him.
And even when things do go awry in families, God promises to always be there for us and receive us when we come to Him. Psalms 27:10 "Though my father and mother forsake me, The Lord will receive me."