More education?

[ryhoyarbie]

President Obama, campaigning now, is saying the country needs more education and is also trying to add another month into the school calender to compete with the European schools. Also, he and just about every other politician out there are trying to push students to go to college. However, what he and a lot of other people (society as a whole) are not telling people that there are more people now with a college degree who are unemployed compared to those who dropped out of high school.

Does this country need more education? Do we need to push students even more and try to make everyone go to college (for those who can hack out 4-5 years for a bachelor's degree)?

My problem overall with this is you can have all the educated workers out there (we're more educated than a generation before) but what good is that education going to do if there aren't any jobs out there for people?

 

[Drtooth]

My problem overall with this is you can have all the educated workers out there (we're more educated than a generation before) but what good is that education going to do if there aren't any jobs out there for people?

There aren't any jobs because generations of politicians have sold us out to other countries, not to mention sweetheart deals, nepotism, and just general idiocy and greed from the richest of the rich that own more companies than they know what to do with. not to mention the fact, who are we kidding, too much of us were told to reach for stars, most of which are reserved for some one's idiotic trust fund baby who couldn't even run a 3k.

Personally, I don;t think an extra month or extra hours in the day is going to do anything but make our kids even more sluggish, bored, and unwilling to learn. Unless they ad a DECENT physical education program by law (one that's FUN not laborious) there's really not much they can do there. I think the educational system NEEDS a desperate overhaul. And I mean really a deep down, scrubbing cleansing of the crap we have. You can't FORCE kids to read books they won't like (that turned me off of reading, even to this day), don't fill a first grader's day with math drills. When doing history, stop having to start back over with the freaking land bridge so we won't be cut short of talking about anything past WW I.... And STOP with the STANDARDIZED testing. No way should it be a multi-day epic time waste. No one's learning anything. It's all deals made to test making and grading facilities.

Lemme put it this way? Isn't watching Beakman's World fun? Or Bill Nye the Science guy? I get more knowledge out of stuff like that than in expensive, dry, impossible to read and be enthused about it text books. What if there was a way that you could teach things in such a manner as they're fun... opening up new worlds... using the book as a guideline for studying, not as a passionless excuse for pretending to teach and get a small, disillusioning paycheck. And really, we need to give kids in grade school the same high school experience. Each teacher should teach a different subject. There's just something about specialized teachers that really makes the subject matter sing.

And above all, it should be built into any college education that ANY student that goes there is guaranteed a "until you get on your feet" job, be it menial or otherwise, at that college. If nothing else just to add something to the resume, and make a few connections. And none of that "work study" garbage. A real job that isn't prone to favoritism.

 

[RedPiggy]

I graduated with my nursing degree in December, and willfully took the NCLEX in February so I could study well for it (I didn't see the point of taking a 600 dollar class to tell me to read questions carefully like other students did). Took me ... lessee ... two months to land my first nursing job (that was a complete wash). From what I understand, it's respect for my brother and the fact that nursing homes are notorious for staffing problems that made me luckier than other classmates, who found themselves hoping for the sweet hospital job that never came ... unless you already worked there. Every time I look up nursing positions, 1-3 years experience is the norm. Everyone tells you to go to school to deal with staffing shortages, but the joke is that no one wants anyone but experts ... but they don't want to pay expert salaries, of course.

I wouldn't mind seeing (of course, I say this as a 32-year-old ... 20 years ago I had the exact opposite opinion) longer school days in the year. I've seen what unparented idle children do on their days off. *shudder* However, it's not the TIME of schooling that we need ... it's actually the QUALITY. I think modeling schools on successful businesses and interacting with the community more than just some random "and our guest community service nobody today is ..." person will go quite aways toward the needed destination. I want to see "apprenticeships" available to kids. If you're going to make an internship something even a 10-year-old could do ... then let's try to introduce actual kids to do it, kinda like my nursing clinicals, where you basically help out, don't do anything beyond your skills, and don't get paid. I'd like to see "clinicals" for a variety of different types of jobs, both blue and white collar. I'd like to see schools rent labs or museum space instead of whining how they don't have money to build those things for those districts. We already HAVE lab space. Let's do some more sharing. I want to see teleconferencing. I want kids who can't go to school to "attend", I want kids to have school "forums" to discuss the needed topics, and I want kids to talk to other countries so this xenaphobia nonsense can die off FINALLY. Nothing will cure you of demonizing the "other guy" faster than talking with them. I don't want to see textbooks for anything other than emergencies, like the power going out (and teach kids to make their own electricity while you're at it ... call it terrorism/disaster preparation). I want schools to join the 21st century in more ways than posting the school menu online. I know from experience teachers are deathly afraid of technology they don't understand. I had to hear so much whining when I taught about how computers weren't necessary to teach ... they aren't ... if you're teaching them to live off the grid in some post-apocalyptic scenario. Modern life is electronic. I want school benchmarks to be more like video game objectives. Real life doesn't test you the way school does. You don't make an A in house maintenance or real estate ventures. You DO achieve OBJECTIVES. With grade inflation and school districts outright cheating to fool the feds, grades are worthless anyway. Let's throw them out and do something else, something kids grasp and respond better to anyway.

 

[Drtooth]

This is pretty much my perfect world feeling speaking but, Grades make no sense to me at all. Especially when it's something subjective like art. Plus, hasn't the system changed so that A's are b's, B's are C's and C is fail? There are kids that just can't do the same work as others. It's a one size fits all requirement that doesn't even help kids. Some kids just bomb on tests. it happens.

Then of course, there's the opposite problem... We put TOO much pressure on kids. No wonder why they're out of shape. Hours of homework, some cases stuff the teacher is too lazy to teach themselves (or worse, stuff they have to drill into kids' heads so they can pass tests to help them get funding). And my personal favorite, parents that send kids to cram schools to get advantage of all the other students, so they get even MORE bored in classes. I remember HATING the heck out of having to do math drills so much (a daily occurrence of 100 math problems per page... I just wanted it over, so I got in trouble for writing random numbers... even though I COULD do it).

If you want good students, take the magic sword and slay the beast of busy work. Busy work does NOTHING. It makes kids HATE what they're doing, and it slips out of their heads. And if you positively absolutely HAVE to make kids read a specific book, don't force them to take tests on them about every single little detail that DOESN'T even matter to the plot. I forget extremely minor characters. have a discussion about the themes of the book. At least give them subjective writing assignments. NO TESTS.

The problem with education is they get SO much wrong, it's not funny. You don't need to add or subtract time to the school year if you plan the time correctly. I agree that bored kids on a day off with no supervision isn't a good thing either, but a bloated school day and year means nothing if the students and teachers just sit there running out the clock.

Why does our system fail kids? It's because students are required to GO, not required to learn everything. But I guess that does prepare them for a life time of menial office work where they spend all day pretending to look busy and wait the clock out. Kids should have the same looking forward attitude they did when they were 5. And really... when the anti-bullying thing takes effect, it better take effect. That will solve a LOT of sick days for some kids.

 

[Yorick]

President Obama, campaigning now, is saying the country needs more education and is also trying to add another month into the school calender to compete with the European schools. Also, he and just about every other politician out there are trying to push students to go to college. However, what he and a lot of other people (society as a whole) are not telling people that there are more people now with a college degree who are unemployed compared to those who dropped out of high school.

Does this country need more education? Do we need to push students even more and try to make everyone go to college (for those who can hack out 4-5 years for a bachelor's degree)?

My problem overall with this is you can have all the educated workers out there (we're more educated than a generation before) but what good is that education going to do if there aren't any jobs out there for people?

I don't think the answer is more school days, either (and I doubt it'll happen, because this is certainly not the first mention of it; I remember hearing about a non stop school year being proposed by someone quite a long time ago). Also, I didn't know more college educated were out of work than those who aren't, but I agree, no one is safe from being jobless...however, I don't think pushing people to go to college is a bad thing. One can always decide it's not for them, in spite of all the pushing. However, bottom line: We need jobs for those with and without the college education, yes indeed!

And really, we need to give kids in grade school the same high school experience. Each teacher should teach a different subject. There's just something about specialized teachers that really makes the subject matter sing.

You may be right!

I definitely agree 100% with the rest this post you made (#2) and also all of the next post you made (#4)!

Although I admit that there were a handful of teachers I really loved who I'm glad we had all day with, there were others who I could have used a break from, so...I can't come to a definite answer. But if I base my reply on learning only - (which is the point obviously) then I agree. But being comfortable is important to learning well, too, so if one has a fantastic teacher, then it's great if one's with them all day. One thing I'd add, is if the kids in grade school do switch teachers like in high school, then the kids should stay in one classroom, and teachers should go to them, while the previous teacher is there waiting until they get there. Let's not make the kids walk around the halls and get lost in their younger years. (Unless I'm being unfair or remembering wrong.)

Otherwise, I definitely agree with EVERYTHING else in your post!

 

[Yorick]

I wouldn't mind seeing (of course, I say this as a 32-year-old ... 20 years ago I had the exact opposite opinion) longer school days in the year. I've seen what unparented idle children do on their days off. *shudder*

Good point that those who get into trouble (due to being bad, or just being a follower of someone bad) could use more school. It's just a shame if those who are good and aren't followers have to lose the luxury of a peaceful summer filled with fun.

However, it's not the TIME of schooling that we need ... it's actually the QUALITY..

Indeed And the rest of your post (which I didn't quote) I agree with 100%!

 

[ryhoyarbie]

One problem that was addressed earlier was the standardized test. I know teachers in Texas are always preparing the students everyday with material that is going to be on the test when they have to take it in April/May. Once the students are finished with the test, they'll forget all the information, especially when the school year finishes and the summer begins. Come August at the start of the school year, those students would have forgot majority of the material they learned and were tested on the previous year.

I'm not for certain why students need to drilled each year with a standardized test. It doesn't prove anything and it puts a lot of stress on the teachers who have expectations placed on them for their students to perform at a high level.

Also in the school district I went to as a kid, the students in high school are now required to take four years of science and math because they're going to be tested on it with a standardized test and because everyone in the education field seems to be pushing the idea that this country needs more science and math students. Okay but when it's all set and done, are the things the students learned going to help them find a job once they graduate high school? Do the high schools themselves even care if the former students can't even get a job even though they performed well on tests and worked hard in school?

This is all just crap to me, and crap is a nice word I'm using to describe the state of education. As pointed by everyone so far, education needs a major change. Instead of worrying about scores on tests and pushing people to do more on science and math (those who aren't that smart in those subjects will have a harder time trying to comprehend the material compared to those who can easily grasp the two subjects), schools need to push classes that actually teach skills for students, skills such as building or fixing things. The European schools also have this program for those student who either don't want to go to college or may not be able to handle college. I don't see schools across the country pushing those kinds of classes.

 

[Convincing John]

Oh, the things I could tell you guys...I used to be a teacher, so I saw it from behind the scenes. I've also attended schools that (at best) had extremely twisted "values", see my post here. I could write a novel on what we're discussing, but I want to have a chance to collect my thoughts first and attempt to abbreviate my future post.

If you want to read up on schools, I would highly suggest that you read Matt Groening's "School is He__". This book (and the subject matter of his other books) are a lot more sophisticated than the run-of-the-mill Simpsons stuff. Go to your bookstore, read it, buy it, check it out from your library, get it through interlibrary loan, just...just go get it. It's brutally honest, I'll give you that and it's exactly what I went through as a student.

What we learn in school
Planning for the future
Any questions, class?

For now, I'll just say this: I agree 100% on what DrTooth said about busywork, being forced to read books you aren't interested in, and those math drills. Same thing with answering questions about details in the story that don't contribute to the story.

One question I always asked (but never go the answer) was "Why are we doing all this? What's the point of all this busywork?"

Some of you may remember the book "The Phantom Tollbooth". The character Milo asked almost these exact same questions at the beginning of the book. His answer was at the end of a very surreal, metaphorical, yet classic book. (This was another book more people need to read).

I remember we read a little bit of it...but only a little. Then (due to time constraints in class) it was back to those nasty workbooks again.

Convincing John

 

[mr3urious]

I agree, the standardized tests especially need to go!

 

[Drtooth]

If they absolutely NEED standardized tests, they should be smaller things accomplished in a small school period. No longer than an hour ONCE. None of this epic week long 3 hours a day stuff. Save that for SATs. And only math and reading. No history, no science... these should be short and to the point. Again, IF we desperately need them. And I don't think we do at ALL.