Why does Muppet fandom seem so underground?

[beaker]

Well, I didn't explain it fully because I felt that was another post for later on in this thread, plus I was busy with something else...

You can't measure a fan based on merchandise sales alone. Heck, you're talking to someone who has absolute NO money and has to scrape for the comics. I don't even have Fraggle Season sets yet! No kidding.

The true difference between a fan and someone who likes something is this:

• If your favorite show was on, and somehow there was a Muppet movie on TV, you've seen it countless times, you'd switch over to watch it anyway.
• You actually know the names of characters that only appear in a couple episodes.
• You list it FIRST (or high up) in a series of your favorite things
• You shudder in pain when someone mistakingly calls him Fonzie

In short the actual passion you feel for the characters and their body of work that feature them. You can say "Oh I like such and such a movie or TV show" when you watch it if there's nothing else on and there's nothing else to do.

Yeah but there's degrees to it. I mean, 1200 people showed up to Muppetfest, at a time when the Muppets really didn't have much visibility and it was the middle of that EM.TV fiasco. There's a certain awe brought over 1 year olds to elderly when it comes to the magic of the Muppets. And that is what I believe is the greatest endearing quality. The "fandom" is unique as it is plagued with none of the garbage that plagues most anime/sci fi/book fandom out there.

 

[Skekayuk]

A very interesting thread. I think part of the difficulty is that Muppet fans as a whole tend to devide into several distinct groups. some of these overlap.
1. Muppet fans who want to keep the brand going here and now with new stuff, focused on the characters.
2. Muppet fans who love the cultural influence The Muppets have had but feel that many of the original characters have had their day - ie fans rather see old stuff reissued in new formats than new stuff actually being made (apart from the books and documentaries). These sorts of fans often don't mind the brand continuing if it can be done with new characters
3. Muppet fans who are nerdy and obsessive to the point it is does get silly. To the point they really would bore not only anyone who isn't a muppet fan, but even some of the other muppet fans
4. Muppet fans who are very fond of The Muppets, but not to the exclusion of all else. Ie they have a life, but Muppet fandom is just a hobby (often quite an absorbing hobby) but they have other interests and hobbies too (some of which may overlap).
5. Muppet fans who want to collect all the merchandise, and/or attend conventions, and be seen to be fans.
6. Muppet fans who are focused on archiviing the history of this cultural phonominon, acurately for historical reference.

I count myself as falling into groups 2 and 6, and hopefully 4.

I too would have been one of those people for whom The Muppets were just those funny puppets that had once been on television, where it not for the fact that in the mid 1990s I came across an amazing musical theatre singer, and I couldn't find an outlet for that interest, even the musical theatre fans I could find on the internet were not always all that interested (and few understood the fascination). But among the Muppet fans (on rec.arts.henson-muppets) I found that outlet. I also learned a whole lot more about the somewhat diverse extraordinary career that particular singer-actress, the British puppeteer Louise Gold. To the point that I have often found it easier to admit to being a Muppet fan (among friends and aquaintances who don't know me very well) than to admit to being a fan of the work of one particular performer.

 

[Drtooth]

Sorry bro, but thats PRECISELY why friends and I go to medium to big sized anime cons several times a year. Mostly for the fun atmosphere, seeing all the costumes, all the nerdy/artsy/cosplayed girls, meeting cool people, the artist alley, finding cool Mario and Sonic stuff, the gaming, the raves, the everything. Never been one for panels, and the archtype of the obsessed anime geek who knows all the trivia....well, comic book guy from the simpsons comes to mind. I know the archtype of the late 80's/early 90's vhs sub tape trade otaku mostly male attendee small anime and comic cons hosted on community college campuses very well. I was there. I was going to cons way way back in the day, and you know...they sucked. It was just a bunch of bad hygeine socially inept cliche'd nerds buying girl garage kits, salivating over 4th gen robotech vhs bootleg copu subs, and so forth. When 2002 came, and anime cons became whiz bang, productions where people were in costumes and half or more of the attendees became female...thats when it became fun.

I always make it a point to always go to the artists' den as much as I go to the little shops. Unfortunately, I ALWAYS lose the little biz cards with everyone's deviant art accounts and personal web sites. I'd go to all the parties and stuff but the only one I go to, those things are late... like after 11 and I have to commute. Our wonderful Boston subway stations shut down by 1AM. But don't get me wrong... I LOVE the costumes. I even saw (get this) a Martian Yip Yip from Sesame Street... and had the camera I had not had only 3 pictures left on it, I would have taken his picture... used it up on a Darkwing Duck and a Shy Guy riding an Ostro (can't even tell which costume was cooler)... My sister luckily got a pic of some dude dressed as Yatterman 1.

No, the fan base I'M referring to is the people who don't even like the stuff or teenagers that are only there because they want L and Light to make out, or Naruto and Sasuke to make out or stuff like that. And trust me, I'd be a LOT happier with the girls there if they were at least LEGAL!

I'm actually inbetween. I like the wacky fan base and I like the serious fan base. I go to see the costumes and all that, but I also go to learn about stuff I never knew. Plus, I always try to go to the gaming section and it's jam packed and there's rarely anything I like to play there (I'm an old schooler, and the only new school stuff I'm interested in has the hugest crowds). And like this one time, I was there Sunday Morning, and the smell of sweaty B.O. and cheap coffee..... Even Oscar would hold his nose! That stuff could actually KILL you! No lie.

Actually, you know what the real problem is? We need a general animation convention over here. Stuff from Japan, Canada, Europe... they all have such rich animation, and I bet their fans are fun as well.


My main point? When Deviant art is plugged up with Fozzie and Gonzo making out pictures, I'd worry for humanity.

(now someone's gonna do it to spite me!)

 

[beaker]

I always make it a point to always go to the artists' den as much as I go to the little shops. Unfortunately, I ALWAYS lose the little biz cards with everyone's deviant art accounts and personal web sites. I'd go to all the parties and stuff but the only one I go to, those things are late... like after 11 and I have to commute. Our wonderful Boston subway stations shut down by 1AM. But don't get me wrong... I LOVE the costumes. I even saw (get this) a Martian Yip Yip from Sesame Street... and had the camera I had not had only 3 pictures left on it, I would have taken his picture... used it up on a Darkwing Duck and a Shy Guy riding an Ostro (can't even tell which costume was cooler)... My sister luckily got a pic of some dude dressed as Yatterman 1.

No, the fan base I'M referring to is the people who don't even like the stuff or teenagers that are only there because they want L and Light to make out, or Naruto and Sasuke to make out or stuff like that. And trust me, I'd be a LOT happier with the girls there if they were at least LEGAL!

I'm actually inbetween. I like the wacky fan base and I like the serious fan base. I go to see the costumes and all that, but I also go to learn about stuff I never knew. Plus, I always try to go to the gaming section and it's jam packed and there's rarely anything I like to play there (I'm an old schooler, and the only new school stuff I'm interested in has the hugest crowds). And like this one time, I was there Sunday Morning, and the smell of sweaty B.O. and cheap coffee..... Even Oscar would hold his nose! That stuff could actually KILL you! No lie.

Actually, you know what the real problem is? We need a general animation convention over here. Stuff from Japan, Canada, Europe... they all have such rich animation, and I bet their fans are fun as well.


My main point? When Deviant art is plugged up with Fozzie and Gonzo making out pictures, I'd worry for humanity.

(now someone's gonna do it to spite me!)

Oh bro you are SO right on. Yeah same here, a BIG part of going to any con, anime or comic related for me; is meeting artists in the artist alley. I usually come up with huge bag of business cards, sketches, zines, home made comics, etc. I spend more money on that stuff than I do in the dealer halls. I always had more a thing for home made craftyness, and it doesnt hurt that the majority of artists at the places I attend happen to be cute nerd girls

Yeah I love how theres this mammoth air hanger sized arcade/console/computer network video game area at Fanime I go to. Theres the huge arcade filled with the latest japanese and US games, and all the new console stuff, but they also have the old school stuff. But yeah often times theres insanely long lines for stuff. And as well, sadly people don't know good hygeine.

Also...it doesnt seem like anyone who knows fandom or history goes to these things, its mostly 16 year old idiot kids who mispronounce choice Japanese words and are mostly into Naruto.

(btw, back on topic...how can someone be a Muppet fan, yet only want to see 70's era and isnt into anything made after that? I dont even watch hardly any pre 80's Muppet stuff)

 

[RedPiggy]

(btw, back on topic...how can someone be a Muppet fan, yet only want to see 70's era and isnt into anything made after that? I dont even watch hardly any pre 80's Muppet stuff)

I think fandom uses the same neurons as religion. You have your conservatives (old-school only), your progressives (old-school is sooooo over), your fundies (latch onto a couple of elements and ride them to death), etc. If you think about it, religion is a property. Some people are into it, some aren't. Some are hostile, some are pathologically into it. Everyone has their uses, though. Conservatives keep tradition alive. Progressives evolve things as needed. *and this sticks in my throat to say it* Fundies ... hmm ... well, they keep alive obscure stuff. And the intriguing thing is when you consider that there are people who are a little of different versions at the same time.

 

[Slackbot]

I have found in my experiences that people I talk to are familiar with the Muppets and have fond memories of them. They know the Muppets already, so they're not going to go nuts over them they way they may do with something new and shiny like Avatar, WoW, Twilight, Harry Potter, yadda yadda. The Muppets are more like old friends who provide a steady warmth than a bonfire that quickly burns itself out.

Mind you, I am 42 years old, so a lot of the people I associate with remember TMS back when it was originally on TV and learned to read with help from Sesame Street. However, I've gotten grins from people of all ages when I wore my Animal shirt, and when we performed Sesame Street skits in front of RHPS the teen audiences went nuts.

...And my pet word for hardcore Muppet fans is "Muppetaku."

 

[Drtooth]

Also...it doesnt seem like anyone who knows fandom or history goes to these things, its mostly 16 year old idiot kids who mispronounce choice Japanese words and are mostly into Naruto.

I notice that with people who only want to watch the new stuff too. And the new stuff we're getting is either really good, but very short lived, or exact clones of all the other stuff. But I make it appoint to go to some pannels too. Make sure I at least find out about one or two new shows I've never seen. But there is hardly a crwod as fun as the giant packed large ballrooms of people who like to watch the Tomb of Dracula anime or the Frankenstine one where everyone dies at the end in such a melodramatic way, it's impossible NOT to laugh.

But back on the subject of Muppet fanbases.... You have to admit, Sesame Street does unfortunately hinder some of it. Again, the whole Elmo thing... but a lot of people who are SS fans REALLY do hate Elmo. The problem is there aren't so many trifecta fans that like FR TMS and SS all together. There are people who like The Muppet Show, Sesame Street (or hardest to find of all) Fraggle Rock. And as I said, SS is still on the air, it doesn't need movies to keep it going, and virtually everyone in the world has seen it. They just seem to make a lot more SS T-shirts than Muppet ones... and Muppet ones seldom venture out of Kermit and (mostly) Animal. I wonder if they had other characters we'd see more of them out there and on people.

 

[MelissaY1]

My Muppet fandom is based on everything else I'm into: in that it's something I grew up with and changed my life for the better. I'm more of an old-schooler Muppet fan in that I collect and show interest in stuff they have done in the past. I encourage any new projects but I find I just don't enjoy them as much as the older ones. Whether it's because I find the quality lacking, or I'm older now, my life has changed alot, I don't know.

But I think like other people here have said, I think too many people in society as a whole still view the Muppets as children's entertainment, and if you go around wearing a Kermit shirt you're either trying to be "retro" or you're immature in their eyes. Me, I have no problem showing my love of Muppets. I own numerous articles of Muppet related clothing to shirts, socks, hats to a Kermit Nascar jacket. I am 32, work in NYC and have no issue wearing this stuff to work or on my daily commute to and from.

I'm not embarrassed even though I get odd looks. My conclusion is with why does it seem like an underground because most people just don't "get it", just like some of the other stuff I'm into except for other fans. Which is why I'm so grateful to have boards like this to discuss my interests with other folks who are like minded.

 

[beaker]

I notice that with people who only want to watch the new stuff too. And the new stuff we're getting is either really good, but very short lived, or exact clones of all the other stuff. But I make it appoint to go to some pannels too. Make sure I at least find out about one or two new shows I've never seen. But there is hardly a crwod as fun as the giant packed large ballrooms of people who like to watch the Tomb of Dracula anime or the Frankenstine one where everyone dies at the end in such a melodramatic way, it's impossible NOT to laugh.

But back on the subject of Muppet fanbases.... You have to admit, Sesame Street does unfortunately hinder some of it. Again, the whole Elmo thing... but a lot of people who are SS fans REALLY do hate Elmo. The problem is there aren't so many trifecta fans that like FR TMS and SS all together. There are people who like The Muppet Show, Sesame Street (or hardest to find of all) Fraggle Rock. And as I said, SS is still on the air, it doesn't need movies to keep it going, and virtually everyone in the world has seen it. They just seem to make a lot more SS T-shirts than Muppet ones... and Muppet ones seldom venture out of Kermit and (mostly) Animal. I wonder if they had other characters we'd see more of them out there and on people.

Im glad there was a bit of Beaker, Swedish Chef and Pepe merchandise in that little 2002-2004 period. But yeah, Kermit and especially Animal seem to dominate as has usually been the case. Though, it was the same way in the 1989-1998 period as well when I was collecting. (tho I did love Applause's 1996-1999 period stuff)

Btw, check tell me you wouldnt wanna go to Walt Disney World...whens the last time we had a Muppet Stuff store, what 1985?

WDW Muppet Stuff store:
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http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_KW3S0od5s.../k2tuzBM-5e4/s1600-h/downsized_0310001055.jpg

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http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_KW3S0od5s5U/S6Kg2yaBuMI/AAAAAAAADj8/i990d7CQoDw/s1600-h/236.JPG

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_KW3S0od5s.../5DaPTNk2dxY/s1600-h/downsized_0308001604.jpg

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Im hoping by this Christmas or at least sometime by next spring Disney Store in the mall will start carrying a lot of seriously cool Muppet stuff. I can recall going into Suncoast, Hot Topic, etc. in the 2003-2004 period and seeing a TON of Muppet stuff. Heck, I specifically recall going into Suncoast in 2003 and seeing a ton of Muppet, Bear in the Big Blue House, Fraggle Rock, and Sesame Street stuff. Glorious times. I would say Im most of all a huge Muppet show character fan, but I do dig the Sesame classic gang along with Murray and Ovejita, Baby Bear, Rosita, etc. (Elmo who?) I so want Murray and Big Mean Carl plushes and merchandise. Then again I also have Jim Henson Hour merch.

Ok, one more thing about 80's anime....everyone our age remembers Robotech, Voltron, G1 TF. But what about....Tranzor Z(Mazinger Z), Orgus 06, Mighty Orbots, and while not quite anime, the still cool Kid Video, Bionic Six, C.O.P.S.(the 1988 Peter Chung animated show), etc?

 

[Drtooth]

Ok, one more thing about 80's anime....everyone our age remembers Robotech, Voltron, G1 TF. But what about....Tranzor Z(Mazinger Z),

Go Nagai! Another guy who's well under-appreciated here. I'd almost tell everyone out there to track down a copy of Kekko Kamen... but I wouldn't recommend it unless you're over 21. Trust me. Other than that, was any of his other stuff over here? I remember seeing the embarrassing Cutey Honey live action movie available over here. That I would REALLY not recommend.

But the thing that gets me is that SS can get away with putting everyone and their mother from the show on T-shirts (though, I still want a Telly shirt with the caption "Neurotic" on it)... but so far, I only see the same Kermit and Animal ones. I did see a Gonzo at a J. C. Penny, but they only had them in mediums and a large. And it doesn't look like something widespread. I'm really hoping once things really take off, we get EVERYONE on shirts. There was a Pepe one at Disney, but it was for kids. It was a sweet ride with that action figure assortment, getting Crazy Harry and Dr. VanNeuter... but we're back in the main 5 of Piggy, Kermit, Animal, and maybe Fozzie and Gonzo again. Even though Beaker and the Chef are exploding all over the place (literally).