Why does Muppet fandom seem so underground?

[Convincing John]

Looks like the common theme is, suffice to say, slight embarrassment. And I admit, while I proudly display my influences and love of all things Muppety and Jim Henson on my online profiles/facebook/etc; in real life it's not exactly something I bring up or share with anyone I meet; even people I hang with. Of course if someone comes over, they're going to see how my living room has a zillions of Muppet stuff I've collected since the 80's.
(hey maybe it's a good thing I don't get dates? ha) Though I have to say, I'd love it if I found a girl who had even slight nerdy enthusiasm for the Muppets or Fraggle Rock.

But isn't it sad that we feel it's like this? I mean, what could possibly be bad about proudly proclaiming or even passively being into something thats created an endless source of inspiration and happiness for millions worldwide for 55 years. Has Looney tunes, or heck even Disney cartoons provided the kind of laughter, zanyness, warmth and inspiration consistently as the Muppets have? I guess it's a sad commentary on society where we feel we're embarassed to say we're fans of Henson's work.

But yeah, while I always see people at the mall with Sesame shirts, *actual* Muppet show character interest or love is non existent. Hopefully that'll change with Disney's push next year, but in a way...it's kind of cool with it all being rather underground. Kind of shows who the real fans are, and makes it fun whenever you do find someone into it all.

I think this is the key thing here. If this were 1981, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Back then, Kermit and Piggy were all over the place. Once they switched TMS's time slot in the UK to a kid's time slot and people got mad that they couldn't see the show, so they changed it back. (This was in...1979, I think).

But now? Think of what has happened since the Muppet Show ended. What did the public generally see? Muppet Babies and Sesame Street. Those with HBO got Fraggle Rock, but that too was considered a "kid's show", although with the stellar writing, brilliant symbolism and unbelievable quality, it can be enjoyed by anyone of any age.

Us? We know about every fact there is about the Muppets. We see it all. We discuss it all. Think of all the discussions that have happened here and at Tough Pigs about the most obscure stuff. We see all that.

The general public sees this and follows this equation:

Muppets=Muppet Babies and/or Muppets=Sesame Street. Sesame Street=Elmo and nothing else. Conclusion: All Muppet fans are childish and immature.

Disney is such a huge corporation that it's okay to like their stuff, no matter your age, because they've been around since the late 1920's. Looney Tunes? Same thing. You have that, plus all the adult stuff they have done with their cartoons without being edgy (the WWII-related cartoons come to mind). The cartoons from both corporations were seen in the theaters, meant for adults.

True, the Muppets have been around for a long time, but they just need a more solid adult fanbase again. I think this is a reason why people hate Elmo. He's so out in front of everything that that's all people see. What did the regular Muppets do in the late 90's? They got cancelled and had some movies that either had the characters play other roles or flopped.

The viral videos are helping turn their popularity around. We'll just have to see what happens.

Convincing John

 

[King Rupert]

To be honest I like that The Muppets aren't over utilized. It's like a little club. Whenever someone recognizes my tattoo, it sparks a conversation, because lets face it, most people wouldn't recognize Dr.Teeth.

Although when he was painted on my drums 90% of people assumed he was Animal.

 

[Frogpuppeteer]

So Im curious, if Star Trek fans are called Trekkies, Firefly/Serenity fans are called Browncoats, LOTR fans are Ringers, Video Game fans are Gamers...what are Muppet fans called?

Muppies

 

[Aaron]

So Im curious, if Star Trek fans are called Trekkies, Firefly/Serenity fans are called Browncoats, LOTR fans are Ringers, Video Game fans are Gamers...what are Muppet fans called?

Mupps?

 

[RedPiggy]

hey maybe it's a good thing I don't get dates? ha) Though I have to say, I'd love it if I found a girl who had even slight nerdy enthusiasm for the Muppets or Fraggle Rock.

LOL, you males keep looking for female fans. I'm looking for male ones. Maybe they need to have a Muppet category on those dating sites.

 

[Drtooth]

I think I first asked this 12 years ago on here(man Ive been here awhile), but it still amazes me how general Muppet fandom, or just all around fans of the Muppets seems quite underground. I mean, Henson's Farscape seems to have a bigger visible fanbase or at least did. Whereas there are conventions, documentaries, and just an abundance of Buffy, Firefly, Lord of the Rings, Potter, Star Wars, Star Trek, Transformer, etc fanboys and fangirls...running into in person or online an *actual* Muppet fan seems rather...rare to non existent. I mean sure, everyone has a favorite Muppet. And everyone remembers or knows of some of Henson's characters...but how many people out there actually consider themselves fans or collectors?

I'm going to point out one thing. You can never win at being a fan of ANYTHING when you try to compare yourself to Trekkies or hard core Star Wars fans. Those were the FIRST of the fan geeks, even before comics had a larger following. Those are two staples of the geek stereotype, mentioning Star Trek or Wars.

Anyway, here's how I see it. It's all an unfortunate case of nostalgia over property value. I've said it in the Fraggle Rock film thread, I can't abide the word nostalgic anymore. Nostalgia means "Hey! Now it's acceptable to wear cartoon t-shirts instead of beating kids up and shoving them into lockers for the doing the same," or "remember those toys you threw away or burned during you're moody Beavis and Butthead phase? They're BACK! And they cost twice as much too," or my personal favorite "We made this movie without ANY research so you can go and see it and complain about how terrible it was!" Meanwhile, people like me who actually remember EVERYthing and wish that every property could last, and the stuff was so important to them, they kept hold of their childhood toys forever feel like things are only important when they're on a T-shirt someone wears who hasn't even SEEN an episode of whatever it is because it's cool.

Unfortunately, the Muppets ARE falling into that category, even though they have never actually gone anywhere. They have breaks if anything. Us hard cores know that. And honestly the Disney sale has more steam behind it than Henson post Henson. We can only hope the movie is a smash success and it brings them back for a nice long while... even longer than the 2002 merchandise rush. but it also seems that with nostalgia, more people are getting back into them. The comic book series is doing gangbusters in some locations, and I even had conversations about it with some shop owners. I guess the fact it's an 80's geek thing is very helpful.

Sesame Street is different. It's ALWAYS been on. it never took a break and everyone in the world has seen an episode in some form or another. I'd argue that Big Bird is more well known than Kermit. Even a lot of children's entertainers credit SS as a source of inspiration. A lot of regular entertainers too. I just wish it had some sort of collectible series that reflected it's adult fan base other than T-shirts.

Over all, I'm seeing a growing influx of Muppet influence and reference in media. heck, we're even seeing Fraggle Rock references... FR is the hardest one of all because they NEVER had a movie, their show lasted only 4 or 5 years, and it was a cable series above all, a pay cable series at that. But I see more and more places carrying the new Fraggle Manhattan Toys dolls. Mostly indie toy stores that only sell "educational" stuff... but even with the 25 dollar price tag, they're moving!


That said, I'm sure Labyrinth is getting an odd fanbase of younger fans, probably due in part to that Tokyopop Ginzu-manga. The Jarreth fan art is piling up on deviant art... really.

But you wanna talk underground? Listen to a conversation about anime from me. THAT's straight up underground. Leiji Matsumoto. If you know who that is, speak up!

Or worse. I'm an American who knows who Lucky Luke is!

 

[Frogpuppeteer]

like i said earlier im not ashamed of the Muppet fandom im part of it just never comes up..closeting i say about it when i meet someone new is im a puppeteer and that i grew up on the muppets..if someone goes into it ill gladly continue talking, but i dont walk to random people and say Hi im a muppet fan...thats seems creeper

 

[beaker]

The general public sees this and follows this equation:

Muppets=Muppet Babies and/or Muppets=Sesame Street. Sesame Street=Elmo and nothing else. Conclusion: All Muppet fans are childish and immature.

Precisely

Disney is such a huge corporation that it's okay to like their stuff, no matter your age, because they've been around since the late 1920's. Looney Tunes? Same thing. You have that, plus all the adult stuff they have done with their cartoons without being edgy (the WWII-related cartoons come to mind). The cartoons from both corporations were seen in the theaters, meant for adults.

Merchandise buying power wise at the mall or online, I think "Disneyana" and Disney fandom is bigger with females(particularly tween/college girls and middle aged moms) while Looney Tunes collecting seems more geared toward older adults like for dads(bugs bunny tie), business people to display looney tunes toys on their desk, etc.

True, the Muppets have been around for a long time, but they just need a more solid adult fanbase again. I think this is a reason why people hate Elmo. He's so out in front of everything that that's all people see. What did the regular Muppets do in the late 90's? They got cancelled and had some movies that either had the characters play other roles or flopped.

Yep! I remember the entire 90's area like it was yesterday and you're quite right. It was mostly "tumbleweeds" for the Muppets. You had Muppet Christmas Carol, Muppet Treasure Island and Muppets From Space, with Muppets Tonight...all spaced out over a decade, and that's it.

It's funny, I absolutely loathe Elmo and pretend he doesn't exist/try not to acknowledge his existence. To me he's like if you have a perfectly fine dinner brought out to you, but there's a piece of dog doo on top of it. Elmo is pretty much what a lot of people think when they hear Muppets; and while Im glad Elmo has brought in a ton of money and kept Sesame Workshop afloat...I wonder if they are even conscious of what a stark contrast he is to the rest of the dynamic. The color red, the high pitched annoying voice talking in third person, the absolute dominance over each and every Sesame merchandise or screentime in the last 15 years.

The viral videos are helping turn their popularity around. We'll just have to see what happens.

Totally! Yeah I was VERY surprised with the quality, writing and magic of the Muppets.com and youtube videos.
(I just wish I was able to download the muppets.com stuff!)
They need to do more of this and keep it up, as the "kids only" stigma can slowly be erased.

 

[beaker]

I'm going to point out one thing. You can never win at being a fan of ANYTHING when you try to compare yourself to Trekkies or hard core Star Wars fans. Those were the FIRST of the fan geeks, even before comics had a larger following. Those are two staples of the geek stereotype, mentioning Star Trek or Wars.

My comparison was more toward recent fandom like the Firefly phenomenon. Also, didn't it seem like by 2003, fandom and love of Henson's Farscape was bigger than the Muppets? And hey, I remember and was a part of Star Wars fandom when it *was* more underground, particularly the 1989-1994 period where there was no SW stuff around and the impact and obsession with it seemed long gone.

Anyway, here's how I see it. It's all an unfortunate case of nostalgia over property value. I've said it in the Fraggle Rock film thread, I can't abide the word nostalgic anymore. Nostalgia means "Hey! Now it's acceptable to wear cartoon t-shirts instead of beating kids up and shoving them into lockers for the doing the same," or "remember those toys you threw away or burned during you're moody Beavis and Butthead phase? They're BACK! And they cost twice as much too,"

What, $12 replicas of 1988 TMNT figures that you can get for 50 cents at any flea market is in bad taste? It is, um...interesting, to see "old school Mario" and nintendo/video game 80's shirts *everywhere*, being worn by kids and preppy college kids alike. You know, I really do not recall there being much of any video game shirts period in the 80's, unless you won it in a contest(of which I still have some circa 1988 shirts)

Meanwhile, people like me who actually remember EVERYthing and wish that every property could last,

EVERYTHING? A lot of stuff I dont want to remember. Smurfs, Care Bears, She Ra, bad big hair styles, etc. There's many properties I wish wouldn't re-emerge and others I wish did.

But hey, call me when you see them bring back Kid Video, Mighty Orbots, Tranzor Z, Orgus06, Wuzzles, and Max Headroom

and the stuff was so important to them, they kept hold of their childhood toys forever feel like things are only important when they're on a T-shirt someone wears who hasn't even SEEN an episode of whatever it is because it's cool.

Or they're like me, and sold all their childhood stuff and then years later rebought certain stuff on ebay in pristine mint condition The Transformers phenomenon is funny. I remember in 1984 running home after school to catch each episode...the movies and cartoon network show contain zero percent of the magic I felt.

The comic book series is doing gangbusters in some locations, and I even had conversations about it with some shop owners. I guess the fact it's an 80's geek thing is very helpful.

Yeah I have to just order my issues online as they always sell out at every comic store near me(that or they just only get a couple copies each)

Sesame Street is different. It's ALWAYS been on. it never took a break and everyone in the world has seen an episode in some form or another. I'd argue that Big Bird is more well known than Kermit. Even a lot of children's entertainers credit SS as a source of inspiration. A lot of regular entertainers too. I just wish it had some sort of collectible series that reflected it's adult fan base other than T-shirts.

I wish Big Bird was well known. Its nothing but ELMO ELMO ELMO. If there was a petition by Muppet/Sesame fans to officially blacklist and ban Elmo, I would be the first to sign it. Also sesame street DOES have a ton of collectible shirts. Sesame muppets were on the cover of this huge t shirt publication I saw at the book store, to promote this series of famous street artists teaming with Sesame Workshop to make shirts for all the main characters. I see the hot topic shirts faded and bright Spencer/Kohls/Walmart Sesame shirts being worn by a bunch of young people.

Over all, I'm seeing a growing influx of Muppet influence and reference in media. heck, we're even seeing Fraggle Rock references... FR is the hardest one of all because they NEVER had a movie, their show lasted only 4 or 5 years, and it was a cable series above all, a pay cable series at that. But I see more and more places carrying the new Fraggle Manhattan Toys dolls. Mostly indie toy stores that only sell "educational" stuff... but even with the 25 dollar price tag, they're moving!

Yeah Family Guy has helped with that. As far as FR, as I always say its a shame it was on HBO and not regular tv. I have no idea how they think theres enough people who remember to warrant a movie. They shoulda done a straight to dvd short or short series of bonus FR season new skits. But I think a lot of people have discovered them through vhs and dvds.

That said, I'm sure Labyrinth is getting an odd fanbase of younger fans, probably due in part to that Tokyopop Ginzu-manga. The Jarreth fan art is piling up on deviant art... really.

Labyrinth has a HUGE fanbase and love primarily from nerd/college/goth/hot topic/anime/music loving fangirls because of David Bowie and the 80's nostalgia, of course coupled with the magic of Jim Henson. Im more a Dark Crystal fan, but its good to see love for it. They hold the annual "Jareth's Ball" convention/masqurade every year in southern california

But you wanna talk underground? Listen to a conversation about anime from me. THAT's straight up underground. Leiji Matsumoto. If you know who that is, speak up!

Or worse. I'm an American who knows who Lucky Luke is!

Hey I go to several anime conventions a year...tho truth be told, Im not too much into anime or manga anymore

 

[beakerfan76]

I too get general nods and remarks of approval from my peers and such when I mention The Muppets or wear a shirt relating to a Henson work (A lot of people liked a Fraggle Rock shirt I have, almost to the point to where we would sing the theme song).

Now to answer your questions:

1.Personally, yes, I do think it is great that Muppets seem to be an underground thing. Just think, The Muppet Show, Muppets Tonight, Fraggle Rock, ect. haven't been on TV in years (Though Fraggle is returning on The Hub), and the only Muppety things in modern pop culture would be on the internet or talk show appearances, often to plug a product or service (Like Kermit and Fozzie for TMS season 3 or Red Fraggle for the aforementioned Hub TV stuff at ComicCon). Not many people are going to know The Muppets outside of Sesame Street, even then, Elmo and Abby pretty much dominate the show. That is better than nothing, I suppose.

I've been known to be a bit of an oddball, someone who is pretty much very different from everyone else, and I consider my Muppet devotion to be one more thing to add to my arsenal of self expression, along with my other eccentricities. In other words, I'm like a watered down Gonzo.

2. Yes I have, both on this site (Obviously) and in real life (Ironically enough a member here, Wes, I believe), but having a fellow Muppet fan in real life rather than the internet is more of a close bond. Sure, with the internet, you can meet up with anyone all over the world (I do have a few British friends online). but if you can actually see a person face to face, it's a whole 'nother ball game. Like I said, it's cool when someone gets a Muppet reference (Like saying Wocka Wocka at the end of a bad joke or doing a rather good impression of some characters) or even knows of some of the characters (It's more rewarding if instead of knowing someone like Kermit, they know a lesser known Muppet like say Sam the Eagle or Lew Zealand).