Should the Muppets retire?

[That Announcer]

To everyone here:

The Muppets have always been edgy. They have always stayed with the times and tried to entertain the specific people of the time. Personally, I'm surprised that we didn't have somebody dressed in one of those horrendous '80s pink shirts with the yellow waves in TMTM. In the '70s with TMS (and on ocassion with SS), pyschedelia was the norm. The entire "Alice in Wonderland" episode, a lot of Elton John's stuff, the Electric Mayhem, the pinball-machine counting thing on SS. When psychedelia was in, that's what they did. Rap and R&B music is in now, so Snoop Dogg and Ashanti have played in Muppet films. If they wanted to portray characters in a negative light, then they would do something that would be considered stupid in those times. Sam the Eagle, for instance. Now we just look at him and laugh because we actually find him funny. Similarly, if they wanted to portray characters in a negative light now, they'd have them do something stupid- at least, today's stupid. And if you once worked with Kermit the Frog and then went to cage-dancing, yes, that would be considered HIGHLY stupid. So, if they went with the EXACT way that it was done back when TMS was on, which seemed of mainly Kermit shooting his head directly in the air and yelling, it wouldn't hold up today.

Also: Kim, I agree with most of what you said, and I too will stand by everything I've said in this thread. And the Muppets have ALWAYS changed. So taking a "traditionalist" point of view doesn't work, because Jim liked the Muppets to change and adapt. Why would he have done JHH if he wanted everyone to view the Muppets as they were in TMS? I rest my case.

 

[Skeeter Muppet]

I think you are being overly sensative. Infact there is a law stating what I said is not an insult. I believe it is no longer slander to say anyone is gay. There for, by law, it is in no way an insult nor was it meant to be. But whatever, you think of it as an insult if you want. I'm sure more than a few people here would disagree with you.

Think of it this way, MWoO - If he was gay, which we don't know for certain, Richard never publicly outed himself, probably because the attitude towards homosexuals was much different when he was alive than it is now. That said, why should we out him now simply by assumption?

-Kim

 

[MWoO]

I was simply making a point based on what I thought was accepted fact. It was not meant to create some huge debate and I did not bring it up to make trouble. Beau is theo ne that said I had horribly insulted the man and his memory.

 

[Drtooth]

But personally, I still have to say the things I actually LIKE are the more adult jokes. I mean, anything to stop the characterization of "Muppets are For Kids." I mean, I feel that if Gorch were still around, they'd make cage dancing and beer (or in this case, Egg nog) bongs anyway.

It's just the writing and the bad choices for scripts and plots which bothers me. I was against OZ at First, then I warmed up, then I felt it just didn't work. Personally, my vendetta against Ashanti isn't that Dorothy was Black (someone brought it up someone said that), it's that Dorothy was a semi-talented singer and a bad actress who had no chemestry with the Muppets. I still feel that even if they used the same script, if they had done certain things different, it would have been somewhat enjoyable.

I really did like VMX, but it seemed a bit jumbled and it ran from point to point (given that a Simpsons writer gave the script, I'm not surprised). it's the NBC promos that really made it watered down.

Personally, I look forward to seeing new projects, but I'm not going to blindly like every one.

 

[Cantus Rock]

Why did this thread become a debate on Richard's sexuality?

 

[Beauregard]

Why did this thread become a debate on Richard's sexuality?

*shrugs*

I have no idea, Cantus.

So, back on subject, is there a middle line? Hhow would we like the Muppets to be? The same as they always were? Updated, but not lowered in tone? More moral? More adult? Is there a place we can agree to dissagree on?

 

[Cantus Rock]

Doubtful, with such a support for the new. But its a nice thought.

I would like to see the Muppets back in their old forms; classic. Not moral or amoral, not adult or elementary. Just classic. Doing it like old time, getting down and having a great time making us feel happy about life. They didn't need pop-culture referrences and rimshot jokes to make it magical. That is what I want back.

Updating is fine. Jim was around to usher in a whole bunch of new characters and great ideas. Its just that when you do "upgrade," you can't lose the magic of the original group. The new character must have that same spark we all love.

I'm not a troglodyte; progression is what Jim lived for, gaining new methods to help him create his visionary creatures. But you can't move forward and forget the past. It was the past that was wonderful -- don't leave it behind as your line-up changes.

 

[mikebennidict]

"Whatever the meaning of this thread is, let's not, not, not drag in personal insults at the performers. And whatever you might say, that what you wrote there was intentionally inflamatory and a horrid gab at Richard Hunt and his death. How dare you!"

What performer did I insult? Richard Hunt was gay. It's not an insult at all. If I say that Jim Henson was straight am I insulting him? And I did not insult Frogster either. If someone is a bigot it is not an insult to call them such. If you automatically equate cage dancing with being gay you are a person who stereotypes. If you then say that being gay is negative you are a bigot. Honestly, what do you take issue with? Me for call him a bigot or him for being a bigot?

did Phillip say once he didn't appriciate this kind of talk about the muppetteers?

 

[MWoO]

I don't know. I do remember Frogboy4, who pratically helped build the site, saying Richard was without a doubt gay, which is who I took my info from. That doesn ot matter though. the point was Frogster was making stereotypical and biggotted comments.

 

[Beauregard]

I don't know. I do remember Frogboy4, who pratically helped build the site, saying Richard was without a doubt gay, which is who I took my info from. That doesn ot matter though. the point was Frogster was making stereotypical and biggotted comments.

Well, 1, I don't remember him saying that. 2, I doubt he did, but maybe he did. However he was strongly against several harmless comments of mine on the subject, which leads me to believe he wouldn't have put his thoughts that strongly. 3, you say that Frogboy was making biggotted comments? Well, maybe he was. But He certainly did not, as you say, show gay-nes a sa negative thing. He merely stated that Scooter (an established charcter) should be protrayed that way. He didn't say he had a problem with Howard the Pig. On the other hand, you said/implied strongly with no evidence that Richard (in your own words) had sex with other men. Now that is not an established fact.

But, enough of this argument, moving right along...

I would like to see the Muppets back in their old forms; classic. Not moral or amoral, not adult or elementary. Just classic. Doing it like old time, getting down and having a great time making us feel happy about life. They didn't need pop-culture referrences and rimshot jokes to make it magical. That is what I want back.

Updating is fine. Jim was around to usher in a whole bunch of new characters and great ideas. Its just that when you do "upgrade," you can't lose the magic of the original group. The new character must have that same spark we all love.

I'm not a troglodyte; progression is what Jim lived for, gaining new methods to help him create his visionary creatures. But you can't move forward and forget the past. It was the past that was wonderful -- don't leave it behind as your line-up changes.

Cantus, I think you summed that up perfectly.

"Its just that when you do "upgrade," you can't lose the magic of the original group. The new character must have that same spark we all love."

I'm going to agree with that. That is exactly what we do need. However, as my point has been all along, we shan't get that by saying, "Retire the muppets." At least, I do not think so.