Why don't most people like "Muppet Treasure Island"?

[frogboy4]

I was referring only to the Muppet Show cast in the last statement. I tend to do that because I find them to be "The Muppets" I guess because of the title of The Muppet Show and subsequent movies. Does anybody else feel that way? Just wondering.

Back on topic, I really wouldn't peg the "kiddification to the entire 80s. I would have to say it claiming it for the second half would be more correct in my mind. By your inclusion of the Fraggles, then we'd have to include Sesame Steet too and that changes the arguement entirely. I believe the Muppet Babies came along in 85 right? Or at the earliest late 84. That would pretty much chop the decade into equal halves and I really think the two Muppet (TMS cast) films that came out in the 80s and the last year of TMS hold enough weight to keep the entire decade from being labeled as a kiddiefied Muppet era. The second half - sure. Just my thoughts though.

 

[Jessie]

Foz & Jamie

I'll find a copy of TMM so I can see Fozzie at his best as it were, but where do I find copies of old Muppets Tonight episodes?

 

[Jessie]

"I was thinking about the Muppet cast. Kermit is the center, Piggy's to the left and Fozzie is the right hand bear. Gonzo is a little more left of center than the rest (as usual) and followed by Animal, Rowlf and Scooter in that order. Do you think that's generally right?"

Once again (and I know this subject has been beaten to death) but another reason why MFS stunk was because Clifford? (Clifford? Okay, I can't think of his name at the moment--you know the purple guy who has the dreads and reads his mail and is like, "Ooooo...Shanaynay") was Kermit's new right hand man. It just seemed...out of place. Why was he even there?

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Hiya Jessie!

DON"T get Muppets Tonight, cause that was right after Jim died practically, no Richard Hunt or Frank Oz really, so Fozzie isn't that big of a deal on that show.

You want to get copies of "The Muppet Show". Post in the topic "Wanted and Trades" to see if you can swap some copies with someone; OR you can order the Time/Life series.

Yes! Get TMM, very important film.

Later on!
FOZ

 

[Jessie]

Foz

I'm confused--I thought Muppets Tonight and the Muppet Show were the same thing?

 

[frogboy4]

Jessie

Clifford was hardly in Muppets From Space so I certainly can't say he ruined the film, but since he was in Muppets Tonight it was neccessary for him to make a brief appearanc. I do think it was a mistake for Clifford to push Kermit out of the spotlight in MT, but I eventually came around to enjoying him. I just wish there'd been more Kermit.

It's good to see that you'll be watching some classic Muppet Show episodes! Muppets Tonight is really not a good representation of Fozzie because he is not on it much. I have seen all the episodes, but I don't have dubbing capabilities at this time. I am sure someone around here does, though. There were some good bits, but nothing near TMS.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Hiya Jessie!

The Frogboy's right.

Muppet Show was back in the 70's; Muppets Tonight came along right after Jim Henson died, in the 90's. They didn't feature hardly any of Jim, Richard Hunt, or Frank Oz's characters durnig Muppets tonight because, of course, they weren't there (as per my knowledge).

The Muppet Show is the original and the best, it is the show which for 5 years introduced us to Kermit, Fozzie, Piggy, Rowlf (actually he'd been around many years before, on Jimmy Dean show and such), Gonzo...

If you can, get a hold of The Muppet Movie and The Muppet Show. Y ou can't find anything better.

Except MuppetFest of course!

FOZ

 

[Chilly Down]

Back to the original topic:

Muppet Treasure Island didn't work for me because the Muppets were again playing storybook characters. I have no problem with that in general, but we saw the Muppets too rarely in the 90's for them to not be playing themselves when we did. I loved Christmas Carol, but when Treasure Island came out, it felt like it wasn't accomplishing anything -- i.e. we weren't learning anything new about the characters since they were all playing someone else. Sure they've played other characters before, but there would always be the backstage segments or the moments where things went wrong and they'd break character. In the end, the true characters triumphed over the story. In the storybook films, though, there is no moment like that. In MTI, Fozzie's just a criminally insane character with no repoire with Kermit at all. Since it adds nothing to the Muppet "mythology," and didn't even have the advantage of being different that MCC had, this one ranks even lower on my list than MFS.

I should note that I did like a lot about the movie. There were many funny moments and whenever Brian Henson directs, it's a handsome looking film. (I hope he gets behind the camera again soon.) But I haven't even seen it since initially watching it in the theater.

Other musings:

As stated, I thought Christmas Carol was great. The original Dickens tale is one of my favorite stories anyway, and again we've got Brian's well-crafted diretion. Also, there are themes of death and life and Kermit's speech about "comings and goings" that were all the more poignant after Jim and Richard's passing. This film also told me in no uncertain terms that the Muppet legacy would live on, and for that I love it.

I thought Gonzo and Rizzo were great together -- they got overused later, but here it was a surprising pairing that worked marvelously IMHO. Some of the major characters got short shrift, but given the nature of the story, I couldn't imagine them being cast in any other roles. Fozzie was a natural for Fezziwig, both because of the name pun and because both characters are so merry and fun-loving. Kermit HAD to be Cratchit, which naturally put Piggy as Cratchit's wife. I didn't mind that Kermit and Fozzie have no scenes together here. Fozzie's an independent character and is capable of surviving without Kermit for a while. The real problem is that they never got back togther.

I don't understand why people gush about GMC so much. I guess because they grew up with it and because it's the only one Jim directed himself. Also, maybe if they're a Piggy fan, because this is THE Piggy movie. I don't dislike Piggy, but she doesn't do as much for me as she clearly does for others, so that's not an appeal of the movie for me. At any rate, the movie is horribly bogged down by the who-cares crime plot involving the humans. Everyone complains about MCC being the Micheal Caine movie ... well, GMC is the Charles Grodin movie. Eech. I'd rather watch Caine any day, thanks. Also, while the main characters are all together for most of the film, it's mostly in big group scenes. The film seems overcrowded; individual characters don't really get a chance to shine. Aside from the core 4 (Kermit, Piggy, Fozzie, Gonzo), the other main characters all seem to get about two lines each. (Oddly enough, though, note the large number of lines delivered by Zoot of all people!) Joe Raposo's score is pleasant but nothing up on a level with the other movies. Sure there are some astounding puppet effects, such as the bicycle scene and Piggy tapdancing, but that's about it for me. Even when I was a kid, I rented this one far less often than the others.

Just to be sure I wasn't wrong, I rented it again last summer when it came on DVD. It actually fell further down my list after that viewing.

Meanwhile, I can't see why people rag on TMTM so much. It's the Muppets doing what they do best -- trying to put on a show. (Even the Doc Hopper sequences seemed kind of distracting in TMM. Don't misunderstand, though, I love TMM!) It's more realistic than the first movie in that they aren't handed a "standard rich-and-famous" contract when they decide to go to Broadway. They actually have to deal with failure and friendships drifting apart, and as such, it's more emotional and mature than the other films. (Who doesn't cry during "Saying Goodbye"?) Conversely, it's under the expert direction of Frank Oz, so it's by far the funniest movie in my opinion. Plus, there's that whole middle section where each of the characters gets a great scene all to themselves, before the suspenseful and fun reunion at the end. And the songs are all just phenomenal, IMHO.

I suppose part of my enthusiasm for this film is also that it's the only one I had taped off of TV, so I watched it more than the others. But I figure that's just as legitimate an argument as those who love GMC because they saw it when they were kids. : -)

So anyway, here's my ranking:

1. Muppets Take Manhattan
2. Muppet Christmas Carol
3. The Muppet Movie (The top 3 are great, the bottom 3 less so.)
4. Muppets from Space (not a terrific film for a lot of reasons, but at least it had great moments with Pepe and Bobo and expanded the Muppet mythology with the boarding house.)
5. Great Muppet Caper
6. Muppet Treasure Island

Before I get a hundred death threats for this post, I'd like to conclude by saying I actually like ALL of the films on this list. It's just that some could have been more satisfying to me than they were. If I expressed some dissatisfaction too strongly, please don't take it personally -- I respect all of your opinions. And this is, of course, just one more opinion. : -)

 

[frogboy4]

Chilly-

I have to comment on your query pertaining to the popularity of The Great Muppet Caper. Keep in mind that I really love all the Muppet films *except for Muppets From Space which I have learned to tolerate. This is just my perspective, of course.

You refer to it as "the Miss Piggy movie", but I tend to think of TGMG as the "money movie". There were many flawlessly fantastic musical numbers in this film that have not been duplicated since. Think of the spectacular scenes in the film: the opening number, the Happiness Hotel number, Steppin Out number (and none of these has even had Piggy yet), Piggy's dance number, the bike number, Piggy's fantasy number, and the cool closing sequence! I left out the Nightlife number because it was kind of filler.

Even though Miss Piggy had a sizeable role in the picture, so many of the other characters were prominently featured throughout the film. I actually thought Grodin didn't get much screen time relative to the plot - and I feel this film has more or at least an equal amount of plot compared to the rest of the Muppet pics. Anyway, that's why I think so many people love TGMC, but nothing beats The Muppet Movie in my view.

Why does The Muppets Take Manhattan get such a bum rap? Well, they must have spent most of the budget by shooting on location in New York because so many of the scenes were underwhelmingly low-budgeted soundstage shots. There were no big musical numbers until the end (which was spectacular, but still all soundstage). Okay, so the Muppet Babies number is thrown in there, but that scene always sticks out strangely to me, though it is enjoyable.

Miss Piggy had that ugly perm and so many of the Muppets seemed to be either cut out or way in the background waiting to be in the brief "money shot" at the end. The rats were cool though! That's the scene that everybody seems to remember most.

Just my take on it. I just can't comprehend how you could put TGMC behind MFS, but different views are what make for a cool and interesting world. (cool and interesting smiley LOL!)

 

[Fozzie Bear]

TGMC:

To me it was a big production where the characters could play themselves being someone else; as if they intended on this being a movie; unlike TMM where they were all themselves, see?

That's why we have such wonderful musical sequences in it, and the breakaways from the film which accidentally didn't get cut out in the editing room (Kermit and Piggy's fight in the park for example, in real life that would have hit the editing floor...which is what happens when you let the Swedish Chef do the editing, right?)

YAH YAH!!

FOZ