The new Muppet movie: Next Year's Yogi?

[Drtooth]

You're saying "you can always make another Bugs Bunny cartoon without any of the animators or Mel Blanc" but to me that's like saying you can always make another Muppet movie without Jim Henson. As we've seen in the '90s, that's clearly not so easy.

Newer attempts at doing Looney Tunes have never been as good as the originals. The Looney Tunes stayed popular because it was still possible for a long time to see the original cartoons like the "Duck Season/Rabbit Season" bits on TV. Definitely not because of the newer projects which are barely remembered once they're done.

Yes, but the point is if they try hard and give enjoyable results, I'd be happy. Though, I wouldn't really compare animation owned by an entertainment mega-conglomerate to Henson, even when the company was really big in the 80's.

The problem is that we just can't get the same look and feel as the classics, but that also doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Look at how Big Tiny Toons was... and Animaniacs. Sure they ticked off a bunch of purists, but they were perfectly good forgeries of the classic characters in TV animation form. At least 4 characters on Animaniacs were revisionist history (the three warners and Slappy Squirrel), the imaginary lost and obscure Looney Toons. Tiny Toons was the next generation Looney Tunes that had Bugs and Daffy right there with them. And let's not forget Taz-Mania, Sylvester and Tweety Mysteries, and the woefully underrated Duck Dodgers. They kept the spirit of the old cartoons, but managed to pull a new twist on them, perfectly fitting into character. Even some of the newer shorts, while not as entertaining and great or memorable as they older ones (of course, a lot of their 1960's Friz Freeling ones weren't so hot either), at least TRY.

As opposed to Baby Looney Tunes or Loonatics Unleashed. Shows that the demographic was in mind the whole time, and the classic elements were thrown out the window in favor of marketing, merchandise, and other stuff that DIDN'T even happen because no one liked them... well, Baby looney Tunes had a mildly successful line of baby products, the obviously toyetic Loonatics didn't even garner a fast food promotion, much less the action figure line they CLEARLY wanted.

Perhaps the best example of my point is Tom and Jerry Tales... sure, it had Korean animation and Canadian voice actors... but even when Hanna and Barbera (or at least MGM) were in charge, they could not make anything close to the original theatrical Tom and Jerry shorts... Not the Gene Dietch ones not the Chuck Jones ones, ESPECIALLY not the Filmation ones.. not even the Tom and Jerry show they made themselves.... but Tom and Jerry Tales felt like the old shorts (with certain exceptions, and adding Droopy to the cast for no reason... but it at least felt like Droopy)... sure, it wasn't hand animated and shown theatrically, any updates actually helped the new series along... and the only major change to the characters was Mammy Two Shows was replaced by a bungling obese white female. And I'm not a fan of overly PC things, but there's no way Mammy would fly these days.

Seriously, even with that terrible theatrical animated movie (We've got to have...MONEY. Yeah, too bad you didn't make any by copying Disney) with them as executive producers... Tom and Jerry tales was the best television version of the characters. Too bad WB wanted the heck out of not-DTV movie animation, or we would have had that around a good long time.

So when it all comes down to that, you CAN make a new project that's good, just not as good, as the original if you keep the spirit and have passion filled talents behind it. But you can also have a dog mess if you just hire a bunch of hacks to pull something out of their butts to make money on T-Shirts before putting something in mothballs.

That said, the OTHER way around is even if you have the same people involved, you STILL can't recapture that magic. Look at Star Wars for example. Episode 3 was very good, but the others were missing so much.

 

[CensoredAlso]

The problem is that we just can't get the same look and feel as the classics, but that also doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Look at how Big Tiny Toons was... and Animaniacs. Sure they ticked off a bunch of purists, but they were perfectly good forgeries of the classic characters in TV animation form.

Well I do want to say that as a purist I wasn't at all ticked off by Animaniacs. They were something new and fresh but still had the same sense of anarchy. In short, it was a well written show, lol. That's what this whole debate comes down to. Whether or not this will be a well written movie.

That said, the OTHER way around is even if you have the same people involved, you STILL can't recapture that magic. Look at Star Wars for example. Episode 3 was very good, but the others were missing so much.

Exactly, that can and does happen. And many Star Wars fans are hoping they never try doing another movie again if that's going to be the result. That doesn't make them disloyal fans. If anything, they're being loyal to the best product that the creator originally delivered. Are they contributing to the death of Star Wars by demanding quality? No, they are not.

Bottom line for me though, Fans shouldn't automatically be called disloyal just because they don't instantly like new projects.

I think in that Street Gang book on Sesame Street, it was said that Richard Hunt was one of the few people who was willing to tell Jim if something wasn't a good idea. That's not being disloyal or too negative (though I'm sure some people thought it was), that's making sure the final product is the best it can be.

 

[Frogpuppeteer]

Exactly, that can and does happen. And many Star Wars fans are hoping they never try doing another movie again if that's going to be the result. That doesn't make them disloyal fans. If anything, they're being loyal to the best product that the creator originally delivered. Are they contributing to the death of Star Wars by demanding quality? No, they are not.

Bottom line for me though, Fans shouldn't automatically be called disloyal just because they don't instantly like new projects.

but again as i and a few have stated theres a difference between wanting good quality and just liking it for the sake of not liking it

 

[CensoredAlso]

but again as i and a few have stated theres a difference between wanting good quality and just liking it for the sake of not liking it

I think that's assuming motivation. You can't assume all "purists" are just being annoying and stubborn just because you don't agree with their point of view. Maybe they're just as concerned about the Muppets as you are, but don't express it the way you do.

I could just as easily say some fans like something just for the sake of liking it, regardless of quality. But I won't say that, because it's assuming motivation. ; )

 

[beaker]

So I'm watching television the other day like a good American and I see the Yogi Bear movie commercial come on. And I'm thinking, Way to strike while the iron's hot, with Tron, The Fighter and Harry Potter movie out right now. It really doesn't fit and it seems weird, like when they released another Big Momma's House or Scooby Doo movie.

Then I wondered what if that's the general feeling of the new Muppet movie next year? While the Muppets are universally adored, they've been out of the main spotlight for quite a while, and as Entertainment Weekly put it, "Been semi-retired for over a decade." The larger audience out there will most likely be thinking what I am about the Yogi flick: "Ummm... alright. What else is playing?" Since I'm even a member on this site I'm sure you guys know I'll see it but with the quality of the aesthetics of the puppets, the 'new' puppeteers lacking in their predecessors talent, and the corny, recycled jokes for each character played constantly, I don't think it's gonna do very well in the box office. Keep an eye on this thread, folks. I really want to be wrong here come this time next year.

The Muppets resonate and connect with people in a way that Hana Barbara, Looney Tunes, and yes even Disney's beloved characters don't. As an experiment, go to a public place(shopping mall, grocery store, etc) wearing a spongebob, yogi bear, disney, etc shirt or piece of apparel/accessory...and then do the same but with Kermit, Fozzie, Animal, etc and you'll see the difference. I usually have a good 20-30 people come up to me all giddy and mesmerized, asking "where in the world did you get that hat/shirt/etc" at a mall or elsewhere when I wear Muppet merchandise, and plenty more stopping in their tracks to whisper and point in excitement.

Whether this translates to major box office gold I do not know, but we can only hope. I definitely have confidence people will see the Muppets film in a much higher regard than these recent attrocities of cinematic "kid movie" garbage(Yogi Bear, The Smurfs, Chipmunks, etc)

 

[beaker]

Yes, this is exactly the sort of thread we need right now. Thanks so much, Frogster.

How on EARTH do you derive the crap you sling about the Muppets from the amazing quality, support, and adoration of recent projects ("Bohemian Rhapsody," other YouTube videos, even Letters to Santa) from not only fans, but the public at large (don't you DARE argue that the public did not eat up these projects) has been staggering. You simply cannot look at the response "Bohemian Rhapsody" received, the dedication, passion, and talent of Jason Segel, Peter Linz, Matt Vogel, and all of these so-called "lacking" performers, and the belief Disney has in this project (there is NO WAY they would release a film the day before Thanksgiving if they were not 100% confident in it--they hold the top three Thanksgiving releases of all time, they DO NOT take this lightly) and honestly expect to be taken seriously when you make such egregious, uninformed, and slanderous comments like those above.

I've been trying so hard to stay out of these arguments... but when someone makes such ridiculous statements as this, something has to be said. I honestly cannot believe that comments such as these can come from someone on this forum. Jim Henson--Jim Henson--once said of the Muppets, "It’s hard to say how long they’ll live. I think this is something we’re waiting to see from the audience. If the audience wants these characters to live, they will, and if they get tired of them, they’ll go away." Obviously the audience does not want these characters to go away. The over 38 million viewers of the YouTube videos, the over 500,000 Facebook fans, the 36,000 Twitter followers, and all of the dedicated fans on Muppet Central, The Muppet Mindset, ToughPigs, and The MuppetCast are proof enough of this. If you need more, look at both two-page spreads in Entertainment Weekly, the most-read film-television magazine in the country, the ridiculous amount of notable celebrities clamoring to appear alongside the Muppets, and the sheer amount of excitement being shown by huge websites such as SlashFilm, Perez Hilton, and far too many others to mention.

If you honestly think that this movie will under-perform with a huge cast of celebrity cameos, the extremely passionate and hilarious and smart Jason Segel, the full-force of The Walt Disney Company marketing machine (the largest film marketing machine in the world), and, above all, the talents and heart of all of the Muppeteers and The Muppets themselves... then there's honestly nothing better you have to do with your time than to be negative, unsupportive, and unfaithful. That is the exact opposite of what Jim Henson would want, the exact opposite of what Frank Oz, Richard Hunt, Jerry Juhl, Jerry Nelson, and everyone else once involved and still involved with the Muppets would want.

While I agree, you can also understand people's pessimism and being a bit worry wart-ish. From 1998 til a couple years ago we have had a lot of hopes dashed and false alarms. I personally believe if 2011 delivers the goods on all fronts, it will have been all worth it.

You're right though...I just peaked at Disney/Touchstone's lineup for next year, and the Muppets seems to be their main tentpole movie next to Cars 2.
http://www.comingsoon.net/news/movienews.php?id=72435

Disney only has 8 films next year.
However, one is a "Touchstone" release(the throwaway Gnomeo and Juliet being lumped into theaters early in the year), one is a Disney Nature Imax type film, and one is of course Pixar. We'll count that as a Disney Tentpole film, so minus the Disneynature and odd Touchstone imprint release, Disney only has SIX films coming out in 2011. Mars Needs Moms is being released in March, so obviously they might not have the most confidence for that one.

So basically Disney has three tentpole flagship releases in 2011:
Pirates 4(which I admit does look spectacular from the 3d trailer I saw before tron), Cars 2(which looks way better than the first IMHO) and...The Muppets. The Muppets will be their main and only holiday/fall release. And you can bet they will be going overboard to give it the ultimate Toy Store 3 marketing push.

Fans need to realize, "The Muppets" is NOT some throwaway jan-march or August release. It IS Disney's main tentpole film of their coveted holiday season spot, and that speaks volumes over their assured commitment. Be it mass marketing, merchandise, promotion, park tie-ins, tidal wave of tv marketing, etc this thing is going to be huge and unlike anything we've seen before.

 

[beaker]

I'll take that over Underdog or Dragonball which throws out the concept and replaces it with something generic that NO ONE will enjoy. Yogi doesn't look like all that good a movie, but trust me... they at LEAST made him an anthro, made the characters sound pretty similar, AND remembered the concept. Next Year's Smurfs? They threw out magical Medieval setting for mundane New York, and based the whole thing on "Oh, yeah, I watched an episode 2 minutes before I wrote the script... all they do is say Smurf... I could knock that out in 20 minutes."

Not to say I'm really defending that film, but it could be worse... much, much worse...



I'm just gonna come out and say it... It's not that there wasn't a point in that, but really.. enough IS enough. I'm absolutely sick of people who just pop in and grouch about how "terrible" everything is. Jim's GONE, Jerry Juhl's GONE, Ricard's GONE, Jerry's getting too old to perform the puppets, Frank's gone on to other things... what else is there? There is no way to reclaim the glory days because everyone that shaped them is either gone or on their way out. It happens with every major property when they lose their creators. So, you're stuck with either throwing a sheet over it, putting in in mothballs, only taking it out for an Orange Juice commercial or something, OR you can continue the property as best as you can.

Now, I'm not just saying negativity will hurt the project, but it hurts the morale of the fan base. Yes, Oz sucked... VMX was alright but not all there, and MFS had a director who should never have been one. let's not forget how hard it was to re-establish the brand after Henson's death... there was a real lack of leadership. Disney HAS the leadership qualities that Henson lacked (look how long it's taking to get Dark Crystal 2 and Fraggle Rock out there and they're STILL not even in preproduction).

But above all, the likening it to Yogi, which was made CLEARLY because the Chipmunks movie was a surprise hit (NO ONE would have thought it would be a hit, not even the people who made it)... The Muppet Movie is a product of a ticked off fan with power who wanted to see a new project that DIDN'T retell an old story or didn't have some idiotic gimmick to it, so I'm sure he knows what we do and don't want to see.

Actually I think we're just about in a new glory days for the Muppet. I know, people point to how many times Ive said that over the year...but I dont think any of us expected what has been happening visibly and behind the scenes(the online content, the comics, disney making the muppet movie one of their main films, etc) and what is to come. I think all the voices are now spot on(including whoever is now doing Scooter) and it's just a magical time. We can all agree that the Muppets felt like they were in a fog fugue state after 1990, and the public en masse felt the Muppets had gone away. So its been a struggle, but inherently people just have a deep connection to the Muppets and Disney will no doubt unleash a massive juggernaut campaign.

I literally cringe at even the word Smurfs(always hated that show), but I am disappointed with how Garfield and Alvin turned out as I did kind of like those cartoons in the 1980's. They just look ugly, all of these live action with 3d cgi. You should youtube the spoof ending "Yogi Bear alternate ending Jesse James".

Anyways, I don't think any of us can truly predict what amazing surprises Disney will have in store next year, so I am definitely prepared to be blown away. We should all be grateful, we've been waiting very patiently for this era we're about to embark on.

Bottom line for me though, Fans shouldn't automatically be called disloyal just because they don't instantly like new projects.

I think in that Street Gang book on Sesame Street, it was said that Richard Hunt was one of the few people who was willing to tell Jim if something wasn't a good idea. That's not being disloyal or too negative (though I'm sure some people thought it was), that's making sure the final product is the best it can be.

I agree! I think we are all rather vocal when something isnt up to par or seems like a flat out bad idea. I definitely don't see people hold their tongues, and only a few people seem to embrace absolutely anything for the sake of it simply existing.

 

[CensoredAlso]

We can all agree that the Muppets felt like they were in a fog fugue state after 1990, and the public en masse felt the Muppets had gone away. So its been a struggle, but inherently people just have a deep connection to the Muppets and Disney will no doubt unleash a massive juggernaut campaign.

I think that's a good way to describe it and I also agree that at the same time audiences have been and definitely will be rooting for them to succeed. I admit I was surprised this movie has gone so far in planning so that's a good sign. Just have to wait and see.

I agree! I think we are all rather vocal when something isnt up to par or seems like a flat out bad idea. I definitely don't see people hold their tongues, and only a few people seem to embrace absolutely anything for the sake of it simply existing.

Yeah I think overall we're pretty balanced. As balanced as you can be on a Muppet forum.

 

[Frogster]

How on EARTH do you derive the crap you sling about the Muppets from the amazing quality, support, and adoration of recent projects ("Bohemian Rhapsody," other YouTube videos, even Letters to Santa) from not only fans, but the public at large (don't you DARE argue that the public did not eat up these projects) has been staggering. You simply cannot look at the response "Bohemian Rhapsody" received, the dedication, passion, and talent of Jason Segel, Peter Linz, Matt Vogel, and all of these so-called "lacking" performers, and the belief Disney has in this project (there is NO WAY they would release a film the day before Thanksgiving if they were not 100% confident in it--they hold the top three Thanksgiving releases of all time, they DO NOT take this lightly) and honestly expect to be taken seriously when you make such egregious, uninformed, and slanderous comments like those above.

I've been trying so hard to stay out of these arguments... but when someone makes such ridiculous statements as this, something has to be said. I honestly cannot believe that comments such as these can come from someone on this forum. Jim Henson--Jim Henson--once said of the Muppets, "It’s hard to say how long they’ll live. I think this is something we’re waiting to see from the audience. If the audience wants these characters to live, they will, and if they get tired of them, they’ll go away." Obviously the audience does not want these characters to go away. The over 38 million viewers of the YouTube videos, the over 500,000 Facebook fans, the 36,000 Twitter followers, and all of the dedicated fans on Muppet Central, The Muppet Mindset, ToughPigs, and The MuppetCast are proof enough of this. If you need more, look at both two-page spreads in Entertainment Weekly, the most-read film-television magazine in the country, the ridiculous amount of notable celebrities clamoring to appear alongside the Muppets, and the sheer amount of excitement being shown by huge websites such as SlashFilm, Perez Hilton, and far too many others to mention.

If you honestly think that this movie will under-perform with a huge cast of celebrity cameos, the extremely passionate and hilarious and smart Jason Segel, the full-force of The Walt Disney Company marketing machine (the largest film marketing machine in the world), and, above all, the talents and heart of all of the Muppeteers and The Muppets themselves... then there's honestly nothing better you have to do with your time than to be negative, unsupportive, and unfaithful. That is the exact opposite of what Jim Henson would want, the exact opposite of what Frank Oz, Richard Hunt, Jerry Juhl, Jerry Nelson, and everyone else once involved and still involved with the Muppets would want.

Very admirable... here's my response.
The quality? Bohemian Rhapsody was the only video aside from the first couple that were put on that received online notoriety. And B.R. was huge. But that’s been over a year ago. The ones that followed barely held a candle. Don’t get me started on Letters to Santa. That was a sad excuse for a Christmas special, and if you noticed that Gonzo was essentially the main character, it’s because David’s been around the longest and he’s one of the few that still performs his own character. You’re not gonna see a movie or special focused on Fozzie for quite a while. Now obviously I’m just giving my opinion as a fan, which is biased. To the general public, it was “meh”.
And it’s not the audience who doesn’t want them to go away. I know they don’t. But people also need jobs, and the Muppets are more of a business that needs to be held up in order to gain attention. Hanna Barbara, I was told recently, just got bought out so they’re going to try doing movies of the cartoon again, like the terrible Scooby Doo movies and Viva Rock Vegas. Time goes on, and as I’ve said before, people care more about stupid franchises such as Twilight and Glee, as sad as that is. I saw someone mentioned the next Twilight movie comes out the week before. I’m calling it now… it’ll eat up the box office and be #1 for 2 weeks straight. Frankly just knowing that kinda burns me a little. And yes, it’s going to have a ton of good cameos, but I can list you a TON of movies where there were celebrities galore and the film still fell flat. Polish a turd, it’s still a turd. BTW, if you want to argue a point in saying that the Muppets are still huge and fantastic, try leaving out words like Letters To Santa, Twitter, and Perez Hilton. Those will not help you.

 

[Frogster]

I also wanted to add, nobody's going to cut down the Muppets, and I don't even need to state the reasons why. It's a universal thing to have some appreciation towards the Muppets. This isn't like the superhero movie franchise or wondering if the next Hangover movie will hold up to the first. THAT's why you'll never see a respected newspaper, magazine or talk show dis on the Muppets, even if they're "Cooking with Kat" or coming to you "Live from DC." You can't really argue about people "eating up" the material they've put out when nobody's gonna badmouth Kermit.

Oh and I'm also hearing the title of the movie is "The Muppets Movie" and I'm wondering, is this true? Are they not even trying to be creative anymore?