The Muppets Episode 4 - Pig Out

[jobi71]

MT was a carbon copy of Muppet Show? News to me!



Which describes literally no one I've talked to about this show. If you guys want to support this show, it's important to understand what the actual criticisms are. Rather than maintain this defensive "fans vs not real fans" mentality.

I'll go further than Heralde. Of the more vocal "critics" of the show here on the forum, I have not heard one of them say they were going to stop watching the show, rather I have heard some say they will continue to watch and hope for improvement. (If I missed someone saying they were abandoning the show I apologize).

 

[CensoredAlso]

I'll go further than Heralde. Of the more vocal "critics" of the show here on the forum, I have not heard one of them say they were going to stop watching the show, rather I have heard some say they will continue to watch and hope for improvement. (If I missed someone saying they were abandoning the show I apologize).

I was actually thinking that exact thing last night. From their posts, it's obvious most of the skeptics are still watching the show!

 

[Drtooth]

MT was a carbon copy of Muppet Show? News to me!

MT was so desperately trying to be a hip and 90's pop culture era-y version of the Muppet Show and failed at it. It has the guests and songs and skits format the old show did, but didn't capture what made the original special, all the while being a complete mess in its first season because it didn't know what it wanted to be. A talk show? A sketch show? A series of movie and TV parodies? It couldn't make up its mind, and alienated viewers all the while the time slot bounced around because Boy Meets World was pulling in better numbers on Fridays, dumped the second half of the first season on Sunday opposite 60 Minutes, and while it was renewed, the second season was unceremoniously dumped on The Disney Channel. And like 3 episodes before it ended, they actually found their voice. Had it continued on, it would probably have turned into a great show, but it didn't, and now the good moments are outnumbered by unfunny pig segments. Seriously, I really do like MT, but rewatching it, the parts that don't work are painfully obvious.

I do not by any means in any universe ours or alternate see a Muppet Show remake being successful or as good as the original. All I can see is a shallow copy of itself that hardcore Geewunners wouldn't like anyway. I just see them trying to recapture something Jim himself felt was done after 5 seasons. The Muppet Show on TV was followed up by JHH, where the format was changed, most of the popular characters were replaced anyway, and it still failed to click. Sure, they kept the songs, celebrity and skits, but the celebrities were awkward, the skits were hit or miss, and when they shoved in an environmental message, it unfriendly and hamfisted. And I swear, hamfisted environmental movements hurt their own cause (but that's another long, long rant).

I just get the feeling that the Muppet audience is like the drunk guy in a crowd at a concert continuously shouting at the band to play their one trick pony song instead of doing something new. I actually picture a bunch of Millenials screaming "SHUT UP and do MAHNAH MAHNAH like on Youtube!"

Let's face it, folks, Tuesday nights are tough. The Flash (which Mrs. Otter and I really enjoy) just returned, and NCIS and The Voice are still go-to favourites. It can be argued that The Muppets is fortunate to get the numbers it's getting. (And let's face it: How would you like to be FOX or John Stamos, attempting to digest the rock-bottom ratings for Grandfathered?)

We can't forget two important variables about the most recent Tuesday night: the Democratic candidates' debate on CNN and the first round of the MLB playoffs. These are event-television broadcasts that will naturally bleed viewers away from regular-series TV. (And now that one of the Final Four MLB teams is Canadian, that probably won't continue.)

Also, I did a count on the ABC ratings figures and only five of its scripted series are doing better than The Muppets in the coveted 18-49 demographic: The Goldbergs, Modern Family, Scandal, Grey's Anatomy and How To Get Away With Murder. Other new shows like Quantico and Blood and Oil are tanking. The Middle, the Wednesday night comedy-block leader that just started its seventh season, isn't pulling The Muppets' numbers. Nashville, a favourite of mine that just launched its fourth season, is taking in half the audience of The Muppets and is probably on life support right now.

Further to that thought: The Muppets has been tagged as one of ABC's more expensive series (with double the budget of an average sitcom) but the network is holding on to other shows with even lower ratings that must cost a fortune to produce - specifically, Once Upon A Time and Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. And what else do these shows have in common with The Muppets? Rabid fan bases that will loyally follow these series to the final episode, and even beyond.

I WANT to remain optimistic. I really do. I want to say, hey! Maybe the real viewers are catching it on Hulu or ABC Go or whatever. I want to say, they'll average the ratings and they'll still be good enough. But if reality sets in and this is another grasp at straws, I dunno... I just see this being like every other Muppet project from the past 20+ years. We love it at first, then we're okay with it, then if it fails to launch the characters back into the public eye it's the worst thing ever, and the classic Muppet fans will go back to "See? Jim didn't do it, so it sucks." And then back to "Disney [or EMTV or Henson's kids] hates the Muppets because they aren't doing anything with them." And yes, big long justification about nuance and substance. But it's from the same people that didn't like any of the post-Jim projects anyway (except somehow loving MCC which is the least Muppety project to date).

And we could say "Oh sure, the Muppets is on opposite NCIS [the show for old people who still think it's JAG] and The Voice [please vote for your favorite singer you're not going to even illegally download the album of if they even get one] and The Flash is likely splitting the viewership, but at least it's not Fox's low Tuesday ratings." Halfing the ratings this soon in the series is pretty bad. And whatever of the fans that hate this show but continue to support it in hopes that A) we won't blame them for the show's failure, B) that it may just become some childhood memory gratifying series they like, or C) to pick apart the show and have more to complain about, unless they have a "relevant only in the 50's-80's" Nielsen box, their viewership doesn't mean squat. It's all up to the mainstream audience and their prudish and or nostalgic sensibilities.

 

[CensoredAlso]

JHH....when they shoved in an environmental message, it unfriendly and hamfisted.

Am I seriously the only one who loved that Ted Danson episode? Lol

I just get the feeling that the Muppet audience is like the drunk guy in a crowd at a concert continuously shouting at the band to play their one trick pony song instead of doing something new. I actually picture a bunch of Millenials screaming "SHUT UP and do MAHNAH MAHNAH like on Youtube!"

It's not that they don't want something new. It's that when they see something not working, they scream, "Go back to the last thing that worked!" Makes sense.

And yes, big long justification about nuance and substance. But it's from the same people that didn't like any of the post-Jim projects anyway (except somehow loving MCC which is the least Muppety project to date).

Yes, humans are inconsistent. Welcome to Earth.

It's all up to the mainstream audience and their prudish and or nostalgic sensibilities.

I really don't see much evidence of this "prudish" streak you're talking about.

 

[mr3urious]

Halfing the ratings this soon in the series is pretty bad.

The same went for Black-ish, but it got a 2nd season anyway.

 

[Drtooth]

It's not that they don't want something new. It's that when they see something not working, they scream, "Go back to the last thing that worked!" Makes sense.

I really don't see much evidence of this "prudish" streak you're talking about.

If there's one thing I see taken for granted it's that the audience has the exact same sensibilities as the critics of the show here. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I don't see the mainstream audience leaving completely because "Jim would have done this this way and that that way." Some might. Sure. I see a bunch of mainstream audiences members getting butthurt because they're aging fans who liked the characters when they were five, hated them with a passion from years 10-18 because they're "mature" and then liking them again because it's hip then not liking them again because some hipster critic made a snarky comment (i.e. why certain film goers are okay with a film until they read one review that accentuates the negative). That and a bunch of parents saying "Oh, my three year old LOVES the Muppet Movie soundtrack, but I refuse to let him watch this...this filth! Plus Elmo's not in it, so it doesn't hold his interest."

If more hardcore fans have the "we want what made the old show worked" mentality, then that's just them. The fandom was always sort of underground. Even when something that was a big ratings hit like VMX, it was all causal "I loved the Muppets when I was 8 and want to relive an overly precious memory" or "heh. Those baby things I liked at some point. I'm bored enough to watch this" types. Somehow, I don't think even if we had a show/movie that perfectly encapsulated Jim's exact vision that everyone would be happy with the show would be successful. But that's just me.

Further more, I highly doubt we're going to get the same "what was working" in another Muppet project. We can get close to it, we can get right next to it, it can be in the same room and probably only bump into it, but we'll never get it. We'll get an imitation that will be dismissed as pallid or we'll get something new that's dismissed as not having the same feel as the original. It's no win. Not to say that Roger Langridge's comics weren't the best Muppet project we've seen that actually captures more of the spirit than most while improving on the TMS format (even then, didn't we have a wall of complaints about how the characters were stylized instead of being traced from the style guide?). I'd LOVE to see Roger write an actual script for a Muppet production at some point. I'm rooting for that. And not to say I don't want a movie/project headed up by Frank Oz at some point (just not Cheapest... it's...it's a bad concept for a film). I just accepted that if we get anything as awful and cynical as MWO or what I've read of the Fox show script, or on the other hand as syrupy as LTS, I'm at least happy about it. The Muppets had a Parvum Opus, and this show was not it, neither were the last 2 movies. I'd say the last 3 out of 4 Muppet projects were the best we've gotten since, and the only one that was a total waste was due to something being rushed and clumsily handled. And HEY! It was written by one of the guys who "gets" the Muppets. Just remember how annoyed we were when Gonzo said something about the show needing Chickens and how that was barely in character and not funny? You can see where I find this paradoxical. You can't win either way, since it's imitation vs. the unfamiliar.

Sure, a good half of the fanbase will absolutely hate whatever comes next on any level of "Jim wouldn't have done this or that" and "This is not what I grew up with and continue to appreciate today" and any level of nuance and defending cases of things that did originally exist and happen but was done better. I'm sick of pleading a case to them. They refuse to change their minds and that's their thing. They want to bludgeon it into everyone, which comes off as a "thou protest too much." But there is the portion that, like me, know things aren't going to be 4th season TMS or TMM level of quality, but want to see something new from the characters, want to see them as relevant as they're going to get, and want to see them relatively active under the care of a company that by all means can dump the franchise in the closet next to Eek the Cat cartoons and Disney Afternoon shows and no one could blame them. I feel, yeah, some of the hate is directed to the characters not being family run anymore, but even back then we had complaints about how "greedy" and "stupid" they were. Bottom line, if you were looking for something that wasn't there in this series, chances are you didn't find it in anything after and including MCC. Why anyone's still looking for it only to not find it and poop on anything that doesn't have it is beyond me.

That said, that's for the old school fans that only want the old school stuff on the unattainable impossible to recreate level. When it comes to the fans that hate the show because the romances don't match up with their shipping fan fics... well... I TOTALLY get Teen Titans Go now. Only it doesn't matter if they insult the fanbase, the network only cares about the hyperactive 8-10 year olds who are their demographic. But unlike The Muppets, TTG is successful in spite of the fanbase. Heavy accent on "Spite."

 

[CensoredAlso]

That and a bunch of parents saying "Oh, my three year old LOVES the Muppet Movie soundtrack, but I refuse to let him watch this...this filth!

The Muppet Movie wasn't trying too hard to be sophisticated and mature. It just was.

They refuse to change their minds

No offense, but you don't even seem to understand what their minds are saying. I get that you're frustrated for the franchise, but you're making a lot of hostile assumptions here.

the old school fans

Fans. Just fans.

 

[Ladywarrior]

lol old school fans. the first muppet related thing I ever remember seeing was the christmas carol movie then disney aired the first jim henson muppets films on Triple Feature Friday (back when disney channel was GOOD) I saw treature island, from space, the merry muppet christmas... THEN I watched the muppet show before I watched the more recent muppet movies. (I also watched the christmas toy and muppet family christmas). Yeah I grew up watching muppets. I am a 90s kid. Big frigging deal.
also mr. tooth as I have said many times before while there are things I don't like about the new show I am still watching it because I am hoping things get better. I LOVED last weeks episode with fozzie going out into the woods to get his muse on. That's my favorite episode so far. I WANT to keep watching the show. I am sticking it out because even with the problems it has I like seeing the muppets again and here is stuff in each episode I do like.
Please stop being so judgemental toward fans who have different opinions. it's very rude an you and duke seem to be the only ones doing it. I don't know why but just quit it. Please.

 

[D'Snowth]

lo
Please stop being so judgemental toward fans who have different opinions. it's very rude an you and duke seem to be the only ones doing it. I don't know why but just quit it. Please.

I don't believe you know Drtooth very well, because there's no comparison. Yes, he's opinionated, but he also tries to meet everything halfway and take into consideration what both sides have to say; if there's one thing he's made a point about for years, is that it seems like no matter what the Muppet project is, it's never going to please everybody, and there will always been naysayers as much as there will be supporters.

 

[Drtooth]

My patience is wearing incredibly thin.

This is how it's going to play out.

I could post a long, thoughtful, passionate reasoning that the Muppet fandom is just as unstable as every other fandom out there (didn't I mention that I HATE fandoms in general?), and rationalizing no one who liked Post-Jim Muppets will continue to not like additional Post-Jim Muppets.

Everyone of them who is the indeed example of being a classic era fan will be ferociously defensive about being a classic era fan and proving my point by bringing up examples of classic era Muppets.

Then it's back and forth for forever that leads to defending stuff that actually didn't work from the classic era. Or completely ignoring the fact that, other than that Christmas Carol, none of those classic era fans liked anything past that era. I don't see why anyone has to be defensive about that. You love the classic era, everyone does. You don't like the modern stuff, well, that's fine. Just stop acting like everything after the last project you didn't like surprisingly disappoints you. It was going to anyway and you know it.

Like I said before, I finally get Teen Titans Go now. There was no way it was going to please the original 2003 series' fanbase. But because everyone had to whine and moan and groan and hem and haw over it (instead of ignoring it and pretending it didn't happen, maybe), the writers snapped. Instead of pleasing the fanbase that they could never placate, they straight up just insulted and trolled them. While I don't respect that by any means, I completely understand their desires to say "maybe if you shut up and ignored us, we wouldn't have to hand your butts on a silver platter toy you."

I don't believe you know Drtooth very well, because there's no comparison. Yes, he's opinionated, but he also tries to meet everything halfway and take into consideration what both sides have to say; if there's one thing he's made a point about for years, is that it seems like no matter what the Muppet project is, it's never going to please everybody, and there will always been naysayers as much as there will be supporters. Duke, on the other hand, is always straight up, "Everybody who doesn't agree with my opinion is a bunch of dumb@$$e$."

I'm glad that someone's not lumping me in with that.

Make no mistake, I'm frustrated beyond belief that this show is yet another apple of discord. We want the majority of the fanbase to be on the same page and like something. No project is perfect. I find the show has flaws, but it's mostly nickle and dime start up stuff. I've seen them do worse, and heck, probably defended it at one point.

But the thing that marks my frustration specifically here it's that those who never liked Post-Jim era stuff and continue to not like Post-Jim era stuff are shocked that they don't like Post-Jim era stuff. Which is easily acceptable and I have no problem with that specifically. The problem I do have is that it's always the same complaints. That's like going to a restaurant with bad food you get sick off of and you keep coming back only to whine about how you spent another night on the toilet. Why go back? If you only want classic era, watch classic era. If there's one thing I absolutely regret ever saying on this board it's "give such and such a chance." I find it painfully lamentable I said something like that. If you can't get any enjoyment off of a franchise anymore, by all means, quitting the franchise doesn't make you less of a fan. It makes you a fan specifically of an area of that franchise, but you're still technically a general fan. Yeah, something might wet your appetite, but maybe go in with lowered expectations and not get offended by it not being as good as what someone else did? Nothing's ever going to please anybody. Bludgeoning everyone over the head about how much it doesn't please you, on the other hand, is redundant.

As I've said like a hundred times by now (all equally ignored, of course) the Muppet fanbase is small, usually underground, and fragile. We're no Star Wars that can sustain itself on long running comic books and animated TV shows all while ignoring the prequels. We are not Star Trek that can keep a fanbase after hating on Enterprise and the J.J. Abrams movies (while blissfully ignorant of the fact that the mainstream audiences only like 2 of their movies). Heck, old sitcoms, some that weren't even that good or memorable, don't measure in numbers as small as us. At best, last decade we had some casual fans who only watched 2 of the movies at their grandmother's house when they were ages 6-9 get inspired by VMX to buy some of the not as well selling as we thought Palisades figures and buy a couple t-shirts they wore like twice. We almost had the same when TM came out, only to have it fizzle when the next film came out. Fragile. Fragile as heck. I am absolutely accepting that a good third of the fanbase will always find a reason to hate anything that comes out. You can indeed stop caring and stop watching and be fans. That's perfectly okay. It's also perfectly okay to have optimism in a project and be disappointed by one. But if the fandom's going to be constantly fractured and turn into the same Transformers (hating everything that isn't G1 and feeling that Hasbro owes it to them to make only 150+ dollar collectors toys for them specifically) or Sonic the Hedgehog (hating on every new game and character and cartoon, yet taking the same characters they hate and drawing furry porn of them) fanbase, it's NOT going to survive. And when this current show ends, unless we luck out and get a Looney Tunes Show/Wabbit situation (where one show ended and a couple years later a new one closer in tone popped up), we're not going to see anything for a while. Then the fanbase will shrivel back up, sink back into the underground and continue to pretend to laugh at the freaking 20 year old Simpsons line about "It's not exactly a mop, it's not exactly a puppet" soullessly like we've never heard it a million times. And frankly, this time we'll deserve it.

Oh, and don't think I didn't expect you to scroll past the poignant bits to look for bits that personally offend you. I spill my soul here, and it doesn't the heck matter.