The Muppets Episode 2 - Hostile Makeover

[Duke Remington]

I understand what the both of you are saying. I love the show,but i agree with what your saying. I think you two are great fans, who just want the best forand out of the Muppets. To me I think they are trying to hard to be different,and that makes them look fake.

Not so! And those aforementioned fans are not "great fans". Heck, they're not even true Muppet fans anymore and you're going down that same dark road, Dwayne and being just as bad as Ruahnna, Heralde, MuppetsRule and Ladywarrior.

Sorry to say it, but you all need to stop being wrong.

 

[Ruahnna]

Ruahnna, MuppetsRule, please sit through the latest episode. It's all about Kermit and Fozzie being best friends.

I was not enthusiastic, but I final watched episode 3. The part at the end between Fozzie and Kermit was nicer than anything I've seen so far on "the muppets" which is not saying much. It did make me hope (faintly) that the real Kermit might be somewhere close by, just waiting for an opportunity to show up.

The subplot with Piggy was dumb, start to finish. So..the Beverly Hills PD arrested Piggy for filming through her car window--but ignored the camera people who were filming Piggy filming Christina? What? Do the writers even know what they're writing?

Likewise the idiotic plotline for next week. Who would believe that "real television stars" like the muppets, who have been singing on stages for decades, would get so carried away karaoke that they'd miss work?

Still, was nice to see Kermit worried about someone besides himself for a few minutes.

And thank you, antsamthompson9, for wanting to share something nicer with those of us who are sad.

 

[Ruahnna]

Not so! And those aforementioned fans are not "great fans". Heck, they're not even true Muppet fans anymore and you're going down that same dark road, Dwayne and being just as bad as Ruahnna, Heralde, MuppetsRule and Ladywarrior.

Sorry to say it, but you all need to stop being wrong.

Duke, you have yet to make one credible claim for why you think the show is good or entertaining. If you have something to counter with, jump in.

Watching this show is a little like having your friend call you up and tell you how excited they are about their new job--in a brothel.

 

[dwayne1115]

Not so! And those aforementioned fans are not "great fans". Heck, they're not even true Muppet fans anymore and you're going down that same dark road, Dwayne and being just as bad as Ruahnna, Heralde, MuppetsRule and Ladywarrior.

Sorry to say it, but you all need to stop being wrong.

If loving the sweet nature, and the silliness,and the warmth of the characters, and wanting to see them as they where when they started. Or believing in the relationships,personallys personal struggles. If laughing with them, or crying with them.if all that makes me not a true fan, then I guess I don't know what being a Muppet fan is all about. Because if being a true Muppet fans means ignoring the past work that it took to win the hearts of so many fans, and throw it away at the drop of a hat. Then i will gladly say Im not a true Muppet fan.

 

[WebMistressGina]

I was not enthusiastic, but I final watched episode 3. The part at the end between Fozzie and Kermit was nicer than anything I've seen so far on "the muppets" which is not saying much. It did make me hope (faintly) that the real Kermit might be somewhere close by, just waiting for an opportunity to show up.

Again, it's only been three episodes so far and I still go with my original claim that even great shows weren't great when they started. Look at the original Star Trek - it only lasted 3 seasons and managed to spawn an entire universe of both shows, movies, books, etc and most importantly fans.

The episodes are getting better, but as someone said, the show needs to better than just 'better', especially in this day and age where good TV shows last a season and the horrible ones stay on for a thousand years (Kardashians, Real Housewives, American Idol)

The subplot with Piggy was dumb, start to finish. So..the Beverly Hills PD arrested Piggy for filming through her car window--but ignored the camera people who were filming Piggy filming Christina? What? Do the writers even know what they're writing?

The problem the new show has, really, are the subplots, which would be better served if they combined the two subplots into one or at least tie all the plots together. This can obviously be done and is being done on TV now - Family Guy, American Dad, The Simpsons, as well as Modern Family, Bones (sometimes, not always), OUAT, etc. Now with that said, espeically on the animated series, the subplots aren't as good as the main plot (it was sorta just thrown in almost) or they're better than the main plot (the FG episode where Stewie hung out with the TNG cast was a subplot, but was a much better plot than the main one IMO)

Likewise the idiotic plotline for next week. Who would believe that "real television stars" like the muppets, who have been singing on stages for decades, would get so carried away karaoke that they'd miss work?

Okay, I'm gonna have to go against you on this, Ru. Firstly, there are plenty of actual 'real life TV stars' and movie stars who have gone off the rail and have not shown up on set the next day. In fact, if memory serves, Shannen Daugherty is one of those and it got her fired (among other things) from not one, but two shows. Lindsey Lohan is another. Oh and Charlie Sheen (both movies and TV, IIRC).

I'm not saying the Muppets are anything like the people above, but if the show is gonna be about what the Muppets do and who they are away from the set, then yes, I can totally see them going out and having a good time. I'm a former musician and I've performed on stage and I love karaoke; on a good night, you'll get to hear some amazing performances by people and sometimes they're horrible. And that's when you try to tune them out by drinking more.

If you think karaoke is just about people trying to live out their dreams as being a rock star, then you've never been to karaoke or least you've never been with people who enjoy it as a way to hung out with their friends and have fun. And besides, if you're a performer, then you want to perform. You like the stage, the spotlight, the attention, all of that stuff is bread and butter and you don't have to get paid to do it.

I've always had the sense that the Muppets, as the people we like to think of as actors/actress of stage, screen, and everything in between, love what they do and the fact that they get paid doing it is just icing on the cake.

My second point - have you never in your life been hung over enough to call out of work or school? I'm not saying it's right and that everyone should do it, but there are people that have and continue to do so. Now with that said, yes, totally unprofessional for the group to go drinking on a workday - I'm guessing cause if they have to be at work the next day, then this is not a weekend clubbing exercise - and yes, they should know better, but - cause we don't know the reason for them going out, other than running into Ed Helms - the whole group was probably out to let go the stress of whatever craziness happened during that day or the week.

Or maybe they just happen to work and work and work and then they go home. While the galas and stuff are cool, there's a lot of hours put into do a TV show; it's not an 9 to 5 job for sure. I remember...I think it was Brent Spiner (Data, TNG) saying he had to be in makeup at like 4 or 5 in the morning to get into character before needing to be on the set at like...7 or 8 and then not being able to get home until way late in the evening.

While late night shows aren't that heavy budgeted in costume, depending on whatever side skit they do (like Jimmy Fallon's TV parodies), you still have to write up a script, the band has to practice, you have to make sure your guests are still coming, and heaven forbid if one of those things don't go the way it was planned - and it's the Muppets, so of course things never go as planned.

My work week is spent mostly at home or maybe in the office. Once a week, my roommate and I try our best to head to the bar across the street, even if the only thing we do is sit at the bar and talk to the regular barflies. It gets us out of the house, it gets us talking to people who aren't us, and we have a good time.

I can totally see the cast/crew of Up Late going out, hanging out with people they may only get to wave or get a quick hello to in a place that's not home or work. And you know what, karaoke is a surprising confidence booster - Swedish Chef being able to do Rapper's Delight (which is an incredibly long and hard song to memorize, I know) and surprising everyone with the fact that he knows it!? That's a total "dude, we've known you for years and totally didn't know you could break it down like that."

And tangent rant over.

 

[MuppetsRule]

Okay, I'm gonna have to go against you on this, Ru. Firstly, there are plenty of actual 'real life TV stars' and movie stars who have gone off the rail and have not shown up on set the next day. In fact, if memory serves, Shannen Daugherty is one of those and it got her fired (among other things) from not one, but two shows. Lindsey Lohan is another. Oh and Charlie Sheen (both movies and TV, IIRC).

I hope the Muppets are seen as being better than Charlie Sheen and Lindsey Lohan. Is that what's acceptable for the Muppets now days?

I think that's the whole point of those non-true fans of the Muppets.

 

[WebMistressGina]

I hope the Muppets are seen as being better than Charlie Sheen and Lindsey Lohan. Is that what's acceptable for the Muppets now days?

I think that's the whole point of those non-true fans of the Muppets.

That's why I said I wasn't saying the Muppets were like that; only that to disprove of them going out and having a good time does not make them the poster children for the above. There are plenty of stars who enjoy just going out and hanging with their friends without it hitting the newsline of TMZ.

I remembered what my other previous thought was.

So in the clip we've seen so far, Kermit is not out with them (not sure if that's gonna be explained or not). For some reason, a conversation on Designing Women occurred to me - bare with me, there's a point to this, I promise.

So there's an episode where Suzanne heads out to Atlantic City with Charlene and Anthony and wait until they're actually there before they call into work, where Mary Jo and Julia still are. Mary Jo and Julia are obviously angry, until Mary Jo mentions that the trio hadn't bothered to invite them because they're the parents of the group, while Suzanne was very much the child, with Anthony and Charlene somewhere in the middle, however when they were with Suzanne, they became children as well.

I'm doing a horrible job of telling it, because it's much funnier when you watch it, but I think it's the same premise.

If Kermit was with them, of course they'd all have a curfew and be back home at a reliable time and they'd be at work the next day. Fozzie is definitely the kid in this, but he rarely gets into trouble (usually) and he's not the catalyst of everyone else turning into children - however, when the others are together - without Kermit, as Ru mentioned earlier, they are total children.

This sounds like a total "we never thought to invite Kermit cause 1. we didn't think he'd come or 2. we didn't think we'd have as much fun if he did come".

Now if that's the case, a perfect way to make this the ultimate episode would be if everyone realizes they screwed up majorly and they do everything to make it up to Kermit. Hopefully better than they did in the last movie, cause I'm with Ru on this - how did you not know that wasn't Kermit? Other than, "we had suspicions cause Kermit never lets us do what we want, but...well, we got to do what we want. It was a disaster and it was horrible, but freedom, baby!"

 

[dwayne1115]

That's why I said I wasn't saying the Muppets were like that; only that to disprove of them going out and having a good time does not make them the poster children for the above. There are plenty of stars who enjoy just going out and hanging with their friends without it hitting the newsline of TMZ.

I remembered what my other previous thought was.

So in the clip we've seen so far, Kermit is not out with them (not sure if that's gonna be explained or not). For some reason, a conversation on Designing Women occurred to me - bare with me, there's a point to this, I promise.

So there's an episode where Suzanne heads out to Atlantic City with Charlene and Anthony and wait until they're actually there before they call into work, where Mary Jo and Julia still are. Mary Jo and Julia are obviously angry, until Mary Jo mentions that the trio hadn't bothered to invite them because they're the parents of the group, while Suzanne was very much the child, with Anthony and Charlene somewhere in the middle, however when they were with Suzanne, they became children as well.

I'm doing a horrible job of telling it, because it's much funnier when you watch it, but I think it's the same premise.

If Kermit was with them, of course they'd all have a curfew and be back home at a reliable time and they'd be at work the next day. Fozzie is definitely the kid in this, but he rarely gets into trouble (usually) and he's not the catalyst of everyone else turning into children - however, when the others are together - without Kermit, as Ru mentioned earlier, they are total children.

This sounds like a total "we never thought to invite Kermit cause 1. we didn't think he'd come or 2. we didn't think we'd have as much fun if he did come".

Now if that's the case, a perfect way to make this the ultimate episode would be if everyone realizes they screwed up majorly and they do everything to make it up to Kermit. Hopefully better than they did in the last movie, cause I'm with Ru on this - how did you not know that wasn't Kermit? Other than, "we had suspicions cause Kermit never lets us do what we want, but...well, we got to do what we want. It was a disaster and it was horrible, but freedom, baby!"

Well ya I think part of the joke was the fact Constantine really did not hide that he was not Kermit. Which really thinking about it did not really work. If you think back to the episode of the Muppet show where the pigs took over the show. They had a green for looking pig who tried as best he could not only to look like Kermit but sound and act like him to. Sure Constantine tried, but not hard enough,any of the Muppets should have been able to notice.
I don't know it just seems to me that they are leaving everything they have accomplished the last 60 years, and are starting over to reach a new younger generation. Which i find very sad.

 

[Ruahnna]

The reason many new shows take a while to find their footing is because the actors are not used to each other and they don't know what their characters are like quite yet--they are still trying on their character's selves and testing their interactions. In Star Trek, nobody expected Kirk and Spock to have the kind of bond they did, and that came out of the actors playing off of each other and settling down into their character's bones.

This cast has no excuse. None.

I think the argument basically hinges around this: Either these are the same ol' guys we've loved, or they are strangers--to us and to themselves.

The fact that they don't seem to know how to react to each other argues strongly for the second.

Kermit going after Fozzie to bring him home was the closest thing we've seen to "normal" interaction. There was a warmth there that felt familiar. On the other hand, the thought of seeing our guys stumbling around drunk-singing doesn't sound very appealing--especially if they dump Kermit to do it.

I know many of the folks in this discussion don't ever venture over into the fanfic board, Webmistress Gina, but I know you do. I know you know that, in my stories, I have allowed these characters to be very adult and very complex and sometimes very flawed, but I've never treated them disrespectfully. I feel as though the scenarios the writers have put them in in this show are designed to make them look foolish and jerky.

And I really hate the idea that the "pinnacle" of entertainment people are comparing "the muppets" to is no highter than The Simpsons or Family Guy, both of whom RELY on offensive humor and smuttiness, even when they are trying to make a point.

 

[dwayne1115]

Well I have said it before. If disney ever needed writers all they would have to do is visit the fan fic section of this site.
If I was a Muppet writer I would first sit down with all of the performers watch seasons 2 thru 5 of the Muppet Show, and the first three movies. Then I would have each of them write there thoughts about a character they preform and one they do not. They would write a backstory on each and then how they fit into the Muppet family. Then I would want there input on where they think there characters heart and mind are at. Then I would take all that and sit with Jim Lewis, Kert Thatcher, and Frank Oz. Take the notes from the performers and let them add or take away from that. Once I had that as a guide I would write my script. After that send the draft to Frank for his thoughts. Then fix it according to Frank's notes.