The Bible and Love and Christians

[RedPiggy]

"Some say our world is getting too small. I say with kindness there's room for us all."

Indeed. Now ... how many children have to starve to death or whatever while we're waiting for that perfect world?

However I do believe that homosexuallity is a sin becuase it says so in the bible and discribes it as a abomination.

You'd be surprised at what is considered an abomination. Do your clothes contain multiple types of fabric? Congrats ... you're an abomination!

I personally don't see why so many Christians hate Islamic countries and their ways, since they to see homosexuality as evil and sinful.

People don't like people whose issues hit too close to home.

Whereas I 100% can understand the Christian viewpoint of abortion.

For me, I can understand it too. The only thing I resent is the idea it's in God's Word, 'cause it ain't. It's not based on biblical precendent, it's not based on any kind of biological information, it's just there because at some point someone either innocently took some verses waaaay out of context or vindictively used pregnancy to control their women (funny, since priests can't even be married in many denoms).

The original abortion rights advocates were racists who setup abortion clinics in poor inner cities in the 1920's and 1930's not out of charity, but as experiments in eugenics.

Agreed, but pro-life also tends to smell of "women are baby factories for mah genes" sometimes, especially from strict patriarchal cultures or Christian denoms. We are nothing but property, the kids will also be property, the man wants the property, thus we should be expected to furnish him with that property.

They want to get votes, but then they turn around and bash people for things like religion.

To me, Buddhism is FAR more consistent in its "sacred life" concept than at least modern US Christendom is. It's not a "religious" issue for me, but a consistency issue.

Overwhelming, this is not why abortions are typically performed.

But if it's banned, what do these people do?

I find it strange how much a champion of black and minority abortion the left often is; at once claiming to be pillars of civil rights yet decreeing only people of a specific economic standing befit fit for child rearing.

Love doesn't make the child avoid malnutrition, though. I don't think just the poor should evaluate having kids. If you're going to hire a nanny who sees the kid far more than you ever will, rich people shouldn't have them either. I don't know what living a non-pathological childhood is like. Mom seems to have fried a circuit since parenting is more complicated than playing house. "Dad" had kids because he expected us to serve him. There are times I wished my parents hadn't had me at all rather than have to live a life knowing what most people called "love" was something I would NEVER get.

I also think intersex people or people outside the binary gender are not a mistake or aberation of nature, but more color amongst a pastiche of mankind.

In many ancient mythologies (and arguably the Genesis version too from a certain POV), "intersex" people were considered just like the "Original Couple" of humanity's beginning. Many First Couples are intersexed, and lest we forget Eve is just really an estrogen-filled clone of Adam whose sole purpose in life is to become "one flesh" with him.

Yeah for my part I say, "I understand you're concerned about not being able to support a child. So please, please just don't get pregnant in the first place!"

That's what I believe, actually. I just recognize the fact that "please" just doesn't cut it with some people, and I don't want to see children suffer all because Mom and Dad couldn't control themselves.

 

[Drtooth]

I love that youtube video. He's so right...how the heck can you bring people to know Christ by saying they're evil, wicked, going to ****. That's why the world laughs at Western Christianity, it's so far removed from not just early Christianity but even Eastern and European Christianity. Christ should be a white buzzcut salesman with a briefcase and gun by the way some of these fundamentalists act.

I personally don't see why so many Christians hate Islamic countries and their ways, since they to see homosexuality as evil and sinful.

As far as what this thread is doing here...well, I get the feeling some Christians here feel they or their faith were unfairly being painted in a negative light and wanted to get back to basics. I agree, a lot of those on the left/atheist/agnostic side have painted this ugly broadstroke of Christians in general, when most my Christian friends who are deeply devout also hate the close minded fundamentalist attitude.

Honestly, I feel the whole neo-atheist bit and hatred of Christians came out of the last decade. A lot of them feel that Bush was re-elected because Massachusetts okayed Gay Marriage out of fear that other states would do the same. A lot of his fans WERE those kinds of zealots. That was the start of the hate-mongering, division, and polarization of both sides. I know I was and a bunch of people I know were. But on the other hand, even when they're trying to speak out the leftwing Churches are silent or very quiet. Easily ignored. There was a button I really liked saying "Jesus was a liberal" I should have got. And Beaker, I agree completely. A) why do we still picture Jesus as a dusty hippy looking guy that helped the poor when those exploiting his word look like human oil slicks who wind up bilking old people out of their social security? and B) Basically fundamentalists of Christianity and Islam want us to go back several hundred years to when women were just things you make babies with among other things. Then they spend all this time on iPhones and Twitter to further that. Jeez. Practice what you preach and scribble on papyrus. Nothing ticks me off more than Islamic Militant chatrooms. OOH! We want to go back a thousand years, but still play angry birds.

As far as abortion, I don't like that it's often mentioned in the same breath as gay rights. To me gay rights is no different than black civil rights. Whereas I 100% can understand the Christian viewpoint of abortion. Abortion is grotesque, disturbing and psychologically
destructive in many cases. The original abortion rights advocates were racists who setup abortion clinics in poor inner cities in the 1920's and 1930's not out of charity, but as experiments in eugenics. Still, politically I can't side with the pro life side for fear of being social pariah with my fellow liberals. And obviously, if a woman has an obviously malformed fetus thats a threat to her life, I can see where abortion should be allowed.

I don't like abortion OR restricting rights. I mean, a case like rape or if the fetus is so mangled it will kill both of them are the only extreme measures I'd accept. What I tell you what I hate worse... dumpster babies, mothers who decide they don't want to be mothers when the kids are little and try to kill them...

There is a lot of stuff I don't like people doing. But they'll do it anyway, legal or illegal. To quote Fearless Leader, rules keep honest people out... if you're a crook, you sneak in anyway. I don't like drugs. I don't like anyone wasting their lives on the stuff... but at the same time, if there was a safe place for them to do it, and a safe place for them to get the stuff, there won't be any massive drug Czar wars, exploding meth labs, gang shootings, pushers trying to sell stuff to kids... Legalizing it isn't good, but keeping it illegal perpetuates disgusting violence. What are we to do?

If people are going to do something illegal, immoral, or otherwise disgusting, I'd reluctantly let them do it safely than get into real trouble. Abortion Clinics may be wrong, but shoving hangers up there is worse.

Wish that there were a dislike button on the new Muppet Central, but I'll be nice and not respond to the new member. Welcome anyway. We're all Muppet fans here and you do know that the guy that gave us Scooter, Beaker, Statler, Sweetums, Jr. Gorg, Janice, the Two-Headed Monster and countless other iconic Muppet characters was a gay man so please tone down the abomination rhetoric. This is a space for all people.

I wanna be nice too... sin is one thing, but abomination I can't abide. Murder is an abomination. Genocide is an abomination. Rape is an abomination. Setting Homeless people on fire to put videos up on youtube is an abomination. There's just so much horrible, disgusting, evil, immoral things the human race is known for that's a lot worse than two consensual guys or girls kissing. If you chose to believe that it's wrong, fine... but it's a strong, vulgar word that implies the worst in humanity.

 

[beaker]

@Heralde: I was born into and raised extremely dirt poor, but we managed. Im very glad I wasnt aborted! I believe life is a precious gift, and today it just seems convenient to hit the reset button like on a Nintendo. Naturally there is a lot of trepidation when a young woman or even older married woman gets pregnant...it sure would be panic mode time depending on the individuals situation. But once they have the child, they are grateful and they realize the path they were on or mindset was greatly helped by a new child.Yet, you go into Walmart or elsewhere...and see very unhappy parents, with misbehaving kids and horribly bad parenting. We require training to own a gun, to operate a motor vehicle, but not to have a child. So I definitely think there should be mandatory parenting classes.

But classism...why is the yuppy liberal class talking about how poo women(often of color) should be having abortions left and right. To me that slides dangerously close to the eugenic classist stuff of the 1920's and 30's.

Now...

I absolutely LOVE this quote you said, and Im going to requote it:

I think of it like a TV series or movie. The main character doesn't start out as knowing everything and always making the right choices. It's watching them go through the journey and developing themselves that makes the story and the ending worthwhile. So why should real life be viewed any differently?

Brilliant.

Also I worry about alienation. If some go out of their way to attack any and all Christians of various races, backgrounds, etc on the not being comfortable with fulling embracing gayness, there's a strong risk and backlash.

I also feel that some of the atheist views can be a bit extreme; to the point of intolerance of Christian and or Abrahamic faiths. Richard Dawkins for instance, ultimately has a pretty dismal, depressing empty message(even though Im a big fan of researching scientific viewpoints) Carl Sagan and his wife were avowed atheists, and thats fine. Im definitely no atheist and am open to the idea of a deliberate artistic intelligent design at play that is compatible with what we know about evolution.

Finally, I'm not even sure I'd consider myself liberal. I'm just me, I feel a bit outside of the left-right paradigm. I just want good things for people no matter their situation.

@Dr Tooth:

Well Dr Tooth, you're mentioning rare extreme things. I mean again, I preach against America's wars in the middle east from a moral and financial standpoint...at the same time I hate a lot of those countries governments and cultures(but Islamist/Sharia and autocrat ruled)

 

[CensoredAlso]

Indeed. Now ... how many children have to starve to death or whatever while we're waiting for that perfect world?

If all we're doing is waiting for it, it will never happen.

But if it's banned, what do these people do?

There's a thing called adoption and then moving on with your life. And letting your baby move on with his/her's.

I don't want to see children suffer all because Mom and Dad couldn't control themselves.

You don't think being aborted is suffering? Fortunately you'll never have to experience it. You got to live your life. Anyone on this forum that we care about, if they had been aborted, they would not be here today.

But classism...why is the yuppy liberal class talking about how poor women(often of color) should be having abortions left and right. To me that slides dangerously close to the eugenic classist stuff of the 1920's and 30's.

It's disturbing how easily we fall back into that way of thinking. Only the under classes have to sacrifice their babies.

And liberals want to be known for being rebellious and free. Yet they want the right to deny innocent life the right to exist. Does not compute....

 

[Drtooth]

@Heralde: I was born into and raised extremely dirt poor, but we managed. Im very glad I wasnt aborted! I believe life is a precious gift, and today it just seems convenient to hit the reset button like on a Nintendo. Naturally there is a lot of trepidation when a young woman or even older married woman gets pregnant...it sure would be panic mode time depending on the individuals situation. But once they have the child, they are grateful and they realize the path they were on or mindset was greatly helped by a new child.Yet, you go into Walmart or elsewhere...and see very unhappy parents, with misbehaving kids and horribly bad parenting. We require training to own a gun, to operate a motor vehicle, but not to have a child. So I definitely think there should be mandatory parenting classes.

What I don't understand is why the heck it's so incredibly hard to adopt in this country. I mean, really... if you want kids to go to a better place and not be aborted (or raised by idiots that got pregnant when they were in high school) you should ALWAYS have the option to put the kid up for adoption if you're not a fit parent. Yet, I hate how people utter anti-abortion and gays not being able to adopt in the same breath. Killing the fetus is bad but having it go to a loving home is worse now? There are all these unhappy kids in orphanages who grow up and get tossed out that COULD have found a happy home. One can solve the other so nicely.

By that aspect adoptive parents should lower their expectations and get kids who aren't babies anymore. Seems like parents only want kids for the cute years, and older kids get stuck there and grow up bitter with no where to go.

Above all, I don't understand the red tape involved. I know I always relate stuff to fiction, but seems like they have all the right answers where no one else has them. But Juno. The pregnant girl found a couple that couldn't conceive. Instead of abortion, which she considered, she gave the child to kids that wanted it. Legally, why is there so much red tape when someone can just give the baby they don't want to someone that does? Win Win!

Well Dr Tooth, you're mentioning rare extreme things. I mean again, I preach against America's wars in the middle east from a moral and financial standpoint...at the same time I hate a lot of those countries governments and cultures(but Islamist/Sharia and autocrat ruled)

Yeah, I HATE that we're in Libya, but I ALSO hate how Goldurndaffy pulled a Charlie Sheen, went crazy, and now he's killing his own people, EVEN his brainwashed and bribed supporters. Why the heck is it so wrong to just send some U.N. sanctioned A*Team like mercenary force to go in there and either twist his neck, or cart him away to some prison for war criminals instead of dropping bombs on innocent people, EVEN the people we're supposedly on the sides of.

Oh... and I find it nothing short of hilarious that the very same people getting Obama on Libya are also getting him for wanting to reduce troops.

 

[CensoredAlso]

What I don't understand is why the heck it's so incredibly hard to adopt in this country.

I know, it's really frustrating. And I wouldn't mind if the parents were of the same sex, as long as they were able to provide and love, etc.

I was born into and raised extremely dirt poor, but we managed. Im very glad I wasnt aborted!

I do think it's the height of presumption to tell our unborn children that their life will not be worth living. Especially when we can just go on with our own lives secure in the knowledge that we were permitted to live them.

And yes, by the logic of abortion, we're all "given permission" to live...or not. None of us actually have the right to begin our lives in this country. The liberal side of me finds this incredibly disturbing...

 

[beaker]

@Dr Tooth: I think statistically if gays were allowed to adopt in all 50 states, you'd find a very secure financial/emotionally secure home. I'm hoping Obama grows a pair and federally mandates all states allow and recognize gay marriage and allow gay adoption. My view is that marriage should be between two consenting adults at least 18 years of age(I'd disallow marriage before 18) I also would make it clear NO church has to perform any marriages it does not want. Even if not one church or place of worship ever allowed one single gay marriage, I'd be fine with that as long as gays could legally marry in a courthouse or elsewhere. LGBT activists threatening boycotts and all this other stuff may want to try a more proactive approach. Remember, even in 1967 a number of states banned marriage between a black and a white person(though funny how in the 1950's America was in love with a mix raced couple by the name of Lucy and Dezi)

Now with Libya...what Syria is currently doing is 10x worse than what Libya has done...yet noone is calling for intervention there(I suspect, because there's no oil)
Liberals can be talked into going along blindly with American military adventures if they're sold under the auspices of "humanitarianism"...even if the US and NATO ends up getting thousands of civilians killed along the way. Why was ghadafy BFF with the US til this year if he was so horrible?

 

[beaker]

@DrTooth:

Let me further illustrate just how evil the US government is. Look at this trailer for the Sesame Street special on parents off to war: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Di82nF7c5j4&feature=channel_video_title
Look how many parents have been killed or horribly wounded in these evil, Satanic wars orchestrated by the same globalists who were behind 9/11 and all the other Sunni extremist terrorism. Rosita having to explain why her dad is missing his legs? Elmo having to explain why a human father is missing his arms? And why doesnt Sesame talk about all the hundreds of thousands of innocent Muslim civilians MURDERED and maimed by the US government?

Right wingers talk all **** day about "baby killers", and I am not a big fan of abortion and often refer to Planned Parenthood as abortuaries. But noone is a bigger baby killer than the US government and the megabanks who support them. Ive researched and spoken out on this issue for the better part of this decade, but I really dont think either liberals or conservatives truly appreciate the full scope and gravity of this situation.
these psychopaths are going to get us into World War 3 if people dont stand up and speak out.

And if you want final proof of how evil the government is: US military used the Sesame Street theme song in brutal torture sessions against Iraqis:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/3042907.stm

I almost feel like there's this giant red elephant in the sky, and I seem to be the only person pointing up and noticing it.

 

[Drtooth]

I hate to turn this into an "I hate the oil industry" thread, but...

Isn't it funny how they forcibly manipulated the price of oil up so gas went to 4 bucks and NOW the economy is crashing again? You know, like it did 4 years ago when they lied and cheated the price of oil up, everyone had to have staycations and spend less, more people got laid off driving the economy down further?

Maybe it's just me, but everyone says these wars are for oil, but every time we get into these wars, the price of oil skyrockets. Ego, imperialism, sweetheart deals with the weapon manufacturers (they sell them to both sides... VERY patriotic), no bid rebuilding contracts, wagging the dog, all this other stuff I believe. But for oil? If it was, we'd have a great economy.

Why the crap is it we can have the technology to make 3-D iPads and have 8 versions come out in a year, making the previous one obsolete the day it comes out, but we're forever the prisoners of the internal combustion engine?

I'm well aware of the US government's useless imperialism and blowing up and rebuilding countries while our own crumbles. NO ONE, left, right, or in-between will ever keep our money to ourselves and focus on fixing our own country. I bet there's more of a push to get decent affordable health care in countries we blow up that want to blow us up than there is here.

The total mindfrag is the very same politicians that claim to want to be isolationists and are denouncing what's going on in Libya are the same ones that want us to stay in Iraq AND Afghanistan and won't let the pres get us out of there. Maybe it's because they're not illegally profiteering from Libya or something... I dunno. I WANT to believe someone wants us to be isolationists, but I can't. Only people who really want us out of these wars are on the REAL left, the indie left parties that ticked off college kids vote for.

You know what? I wish those guys were electable. The only way to get the country back on track is some pretty far liberal stuff. I mean, face it. The big scary socialist running the country is basically a moderate Republican. I want him to grow a pair too. I mean, not just giving gays right, but yank those big fat tax jobs out of the fat porcine sausagy fingers of big business and give it to people who really need it, get us the heck out of the Middle East, tell Libya to suck it, and ram an energy policy bill down everyone's throats so we don't have to keep making deals with said terrorist lovin' countries for their magic make car go juice!

The oil companies HATE us! Big Business only wants us to buy things, but won't help us out to give us the money to buy them. Everything's made in sweatshops of other countries that are doing better than us because we keep letting them get these jobs, pried from our cold dead hands. We don't HAVE capitalism anymore, we have Corporate Socialism.

 

[beaker]

Well remember, the very people who attacked us on 9/11 were state sponsored, financed and helped by members of OPEC. Osama bin Laden was regularly a guess and lauded with cash(thats where al Qaeda got most their money) by very senior people and royalty of Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Qatar and (while not an oil country) Pakistan. And the US government talks tough on terrorism, but does deals with these people.

The Libya war is a total fraud, because now the US is financing and arming al Qaeda backed rebels(al Qaeda of the Mah'greb for instance) and Col. Moamar Ghadafy was the West's BFF in oil/defense/etc until January of this year. There's pictures of him and Obama, and him and UK's PM yucking it up. NATO is the one killing civilians in Libya, as much as I dont like Ghadafy either.

Now big oil and big energy...they've dotted the American landscape with countless tens of thousands of "natural gas" wells which turns all the area water into flammable toxic gas and has made countless people sick(natural gas is terrible and unnatural to dig out of the ground) Look at nuclear energy...Fukishima is now twice as bad as Chernobyl. Chernobyl! A plant in Nebraska also melted down. And the SAME big oil who aggressively paid Republicans to claim global warming is a hoax, are now paying money to co-opt the "green eco" movement and push their own bizarre climate change answer(suffocating carbon tax that will destroy developing nations)

Remember, big autos bought up all the subways transportation in 1950's Southern California to destroy it and force people to use cars. This is the real life conspiracy that's always been going on. They now talk about energy saving cars and alt energy, but the big auto/oil industry are the ones who have squashed all that stuff

Finally, bingo man...America has NOT benefited one single oil drop. America doesnt do wars for itself...it does it for OTHER people(foreign states, mega banks, corporations, etc)
Fact: China got most the oil in Iraq, Sudan and most the mineral mine contracts in Afghanistan...all without having to expend a single Chinese soldier.