The Bible and Love and Christians

[GonzoLeaper]

I agree that American Christians probably wouldn't accomplish much policy change by speaking out, but in the long run it would make a big difference in changing the global climate of tolerance. I think it would be great if Christians could help lead that charge.

On another note, there's a bill right now moving through the state legislature in Tennessee that would make it a crime for a teacher to say the word "gay." If this bill passes, a bullied gay kid wouldn't be able to go to a teacher or school administrator for help—as if things weren't already hard enough for gay kids in the Bible Belt. More info here. This has the potential to hurt real kids in a way that could lead to lifelong problems. Kids deserve understanding without dogma, politics or pressure thrown at them from any side! There's a time coming soon when this country will progress except for a few bigoted backwards places. I know some great people from Tennessee, both straight and gay, Christian and otherwise. I hope there are enough thoughtful people like them to keep this from happening.

Regarding the law in Tennessee, I think that's incredibly stupid to make it a crime to say a particular word. If we were going to do that with anything, I'd prefer it be against curse words that no one should be using anyway. But then people would complain about freedom of speech and folks like Lenny Bruce come to mind. And I understand that and so I don't expect the American government to pass such a law. And I don't really need them to anyway- God has already made it clear what His laws are regarding word usage and He says not to let anything unwholesome come out of your mouth except that which is useful for building others up.
And here's where we get to the issue with the TN law and the Uganda law. You can outlaw a word, but it just shoves the issue aside and doesn't let anyone really deal with it. That would be like outlawing the "n" word that racists used back in the 1800s- (and sadly some still used it through the 1900s and to today)- but just because the KKK may not have been allowed to say certain words under law, it wouldn't change their hearts and how they felt toward people.
And that's all the law in TN would do and all the law in Uganda will do- it might force people to either ignore an issue or pretend that they don't deal with it- but it doesn't make it go away. But then I wonder how much is it really America's place to go in and tell another country how to operate even if we disagree with them and think it's crazy what they're doing. But if people are crying out for help and particularly in this case where people are being killed- then at the very least, America should offer some admonishment at this policy.
It just makes me think of John 8, where the Pharisees bring a woman caught in adultery to Jesus and ask Him what they should do- since the Old Testament Law says they are to stone her to death. And Jesus ignores them and writes in the dirt with His hand for a while at first- and then straightens up and says to let him who is without sin cast the first stone. And from oldest to youngest, they all slip away until only Jesus is left- because of course, He is the only one without sin and the only one who could rightfully condemn her. But He asks her, "Has no one condemned you?" And she says, "No one, Lord." Then Jesus says- "Then neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more."
Just as John 3:17 says- Jesus didn't come to condemn the world, but to save the world. And that's key- He wants to save the world, but He doesn't excuse sin. He forgives sin and then tells us to sin no more.
I think it was Abraham Lincoln who said that you can't legislate morality and it's true.
This is why I don't think legislating morality does much good because it's only an external change of behavior but not a true internal change of heart. That is what is needed and that's what Jesus came to do.

 

[frogboy4]

Regarding the law in Tennessee, I think that's incredibly stupid to make it a crime to say a particular word. If we were going to do that with anything, I'd prefer it be against curse words that no one should be using anyway. But then people would complain about freedom of speech and folks like Lenny Bruce come to mind. And I understand that and so I don't expect the American government to pass such a law. And I don't really need them to anyway- God has already made it clear what His laws are regarding word usage and He says not to let anything unwholesome come out of your mouth except that which is useful for building others up.
And here's where we get to the issue with the TN law and the Uganda law. You can outlaw a word, but it just shoves the issue aside and doesn't let anyone really deal with it. That would be like outlawing the "n" word that racists used back in the 1800s- (and sadly some still used it through the 1900s and to today)- but just because the KKK may not have been allowed to say certain words under law, it wouldn't change their hearts and how they felt toward people.
And that's all the law in TN would do and all the law in Uganda will do- it might force people to either ignore an issue or pretend that they don't deal with it- but it doesn't make it go away. But then I wonder how much is it really America's place to go in and tell another country how to operate even if we disagree with them and think it's crazy what they're doing. But if people are crying out for help and particularly in this case where people are being killed- then at the very least, America should offer some admonishment at this policy.
It just makes me think of John 8, where the Pharisees bring a woman caught in adultery to Jesus and ask Him what they should do- since the Old Testament Law says they are to stone her to death. And Jesus ignores them and writes in the dirt with His hand for a while at first- and then straightens up and says to let him who is without sin cast the first stone. And from oldest to youngest, they all slip away until only Jesus is left- because of course, He is the only one without sin and the only one who could rightfully condemn her. But He asks her, "Has no one condemned you?" And she says, "No one, Lord." Then Jesus says- "Then neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more."
Just as John 3:17 says- Jesus didn't come to condemn the world, but to save the world. And that's key- He wants to save the world, but He doesn't excuse sin. He forgives sin and then tells us to sin no more.
I think it was Abraham Lincoln who said that you can't legislate morality and it's true.
This is why I don't think legislating morality does much good because it's only an external change of behavior but not a true internal change of heart. That is what is needed and that's what Jesus came to do.

The law is about more than terminology. It's about the issue. A child cannot even discuss being bullied for being gay or even the perception of being gay with teachers, guidance counselors or school administrators. This legislation gives safe haven to hate-crime bullies in TN schools. It's not about legislating morality. It has to do with punishing kids who are being bullied and giving them the idea that they somehow deserve it.

I respectfully understand your analogy, but still find it insulting to compare cheating on one's spouse can be equated to romantically loving a person of the same gender. As far as sin goes, non-Christians already know what Christians think of us. I think it's more of a sin continually referring to people living their lives outside of Christian dogma as sinners (even with the inclusion that "we are all sinners"). While I believe in right and wrong, I don't believe in the concept of sin. I find the idea that those who live without religious ties have no moral code either. We most certainly do and we shouldn't be required to qualify that with every religious person. And nobody deserves to be murdered for loving another person.

It's important that all human inhabitants of this planet stand up and lend our voices and support for the weaker people; whether they are weak because they are bullied by schoolmates, violence or political policies. That doesn't mean we have to wage war, force our issues or make others live lives by our code. On the contrary. As humans we should all be on the side of human rights and fair treatment and do what we can in our own corner of the world to improve that. Small ways are just as important as the larger ones! We should have all learned that from Fraggle Rock.

 

[GonzoLeaper]

I respectfully understand your analogy, but still find it insulting to compare cheating on one's spouse can be equated to romantically loving a person of the same gender. As far as sin goes, non-Christians already know what Christians think of us. I think it's more of a sin continually referring to people living their lives outside of Christian dogma as sinners (even with the inclusion that "we are all sinners"). While I believe in right and wrong, I don't believe in the concept of sin. I find the idea that those who live without religious ties have no moral code either. We most certainly do and we shouldn't be required to qualify that with every religious person. And nobody deserves to be murdered for loving another person.

I'm sorry you find it insulting but I am only stating what The Bible says. James 2:10 says that breaking The Law at one point makes us guilty of breaking all of it. And God declares both homosexuality and adultery to be sins and that's why they can be equated as equally wrong.
Of course, if you don't believe in the concept of sin, I suppose that would follow since you don't seem to believe in God- or at least not the picture of Him The Bible presents. How do you qualify right and wrong then? I am not saying that to doubt that you have a moral code- I believe everyone does in some way or another. But I was wondering how people decide what's right and what's wrong if we're not all looking to the universal Law that God set down.

 

[frogboy4]

I'm sorry you find it insulting but I am only stating what The Bible says. James 2:10 says that breaking The Law at one point makes us guilty of breaking all of it. And God declares both homosexuality and adultery to be sins and that's why they can be equated as equally wrong.
Of course, if you don't believe in the concept of sin, I suppose that would follow since you don't seem to believe in God- or at least not the picture of Him The Bible presents. How do you qualify right and wrong then? I am not saying that to doubt that you have a moral code- I believe everyone does in some way or another. But I was wondering how people decide what's right and what's wrong if we're not all looking to the universal Law that God set down.

As stated, it's horribly presumptuous for a Christian to expect others to qualify their morals and then you proceeded to do just that! It doesn't take a genius from on high to tell you that harming others by stealing, maiming, murdering or disrespecting them is immoral and I iterate that its nun-ya-business where people find their moral code unless they offer to share that.

You are actively choosing to be insensitive and thus behaving like a bully. You haven't been silenced or strong-armed to change your point of view or to keep silent on your perspective. Nothing comes from my referring to Christianity as a mental disorder brought about from a fear of one's own mortality or your continually referring to gays as sinners. I thought we respectfully agreed to disagree so that a larger understanding can come and bring about a peaceful coexistence. If you can't discuss an issue without allocating sin then you don't need to contribute to this discussion because that's not helpful.

I strive to make genuinely positive remarks about Christians when possible in my posts even though Christianity has mainly been a dangerously toxic force in my life and in the lives of many, many friends. I choose to respect that others find value in what I don't and even celebrate that Christians have found their purpose. It is never my intention to tinker with that, devalue it or change it. I do not continually call Christians sinners or call them wrong. Anything I've shared is with the intention of clearing the extraneous brush so that "non-believers" will be more receptive to listening to what Christians have to say.

Yes, I also mention the things I think would improve their perception and inquire why such a strong, large group falls silent on so many issues where they should speak up and help. That's not a judgment as much as it is a statement of fact that true, great change can happen in the world if we all stop bickering about our spiritual beliefs and we unite to help alleviate the suffering in the world without enforcing our religious or social ideas.

I understand your argument and where it comes from, but at this point you are taunting gays by calling us sinners and that's a big reason why there's so much animosity between the two groups.

Are you a brave and confident enough Christian to help change that, or will you choose to perpetuate this unhelpful (albeit true under your theology) piety? That's what this thread is all about. Not witnessing, not changing others. It's in the understanding and getting along with one another. That's the most muppety way of dealing with others rather than just the Wilkins and Wontkins way.

 

[GonzoLeaper]

As stated, it's horribly presumptuous for a Christian to expect others to qualify their morals and then you proceeded to do just that! It doesn't take a genius from on high to tell you that harming others by stealing, maiming, murdering or disrespecting them is immoral and I iterate that its nun-ya-business where people find their moral code unless they offer to share that.

Okay- just wondering. I was trying to address a philosophical question as it relates to spiritual beliefs, but that's fine if you don't care to talk about it.

You are actively choosing to be insensitive and thus behaving like a bully. You haven't been silenced or strong-armed to change your point of view or to keep silent on your perspective. Nothing comes from my referring to Christianity as a mental disorder brought about from a fear of one's own mortality or your continually referring to gays as sinners. I thought we respectfully agreed to disagree so that a larger understanding can come and bring about a peaceful coexistence. If you can't discuss an issue without allocating sin then you don't need to contribute to this discussion because that's not helpful.

I'm not sure how I'm being insensitive and behaving like a bully. Yes, I referred to homosexuality as a sin. But of course, everyone has done wrong, straight or not. I was not trying to paint homosexuality as a bigger sin than anything else- my point was that everyone deals with evil. I understand that you don't consider love and courting relationships with the same sex to be wrong. But putting that aside, I think everyone can still agree that we've done wrong in some way or another.

I understand your argument and where it comes from, but at this point you are taunting gays by calling us sinners and that's a big reason why there's so much animosity between the two groups.

I wasn't trying to taunt any people who identify as homosexual. I was only stating what The Bible says. And it says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Are you a brave and confident enough Christian to help change that, or will you choose to perpetuate this unhelpful (albeit true under your theology) piety? That's what this thread is all about. Not witnessing, not changing others. It's in the understanding and getting along with one another. That's the most muppety way of dealing with others rather than just the Wilkins and Wontkins way.

What piety are you referring to? I'm not trying to be pious. I've stated before in this thread and I'll state again that I am no better than anyone else. I have done many evil things in my life as well. I am a sinner forgiven by the grace of God through Jesus' death and Resurrection. That's it. I understand your position that you don't believe in Christ and don't accept His teachings. That's your choice.
But I thought we were getting along as it was.

I strive to make genuinely positive remarks about Christians when possible in my posts even though Christianity has mainly been a dangerously toxic force in my life and in the lives of many, many friends. I choose to respect that others find value in what I don't and even celebrate that Christians have found their purpose. It is never my intention to tinker with that, devalue it or change it. I do not continually call Christians sinners or call them wrong. Anything I've shared is with the intention of clearing the extraneous brush so that "non-believers" will be more receptive to listening to what Christians have to say.

Yes, I also mention the things I think would improve their perception and inquire why such a strong, large group falls silent on so many issues where they should speak up and help. That's not a judgment as much as it is a statement of fact that true, great change can happen in the world if we all stop bickering about our spiritual beliefs and we unite to help alleviate the suffering in the world without enforcing our religious or social ideas.

I appreciate that you have made positive remarks about Christianity and seem to have an understanding spirit about Christian beliefs. However, at the core of Christian beliefs is that Jesus Christ is the only One who can truly change anyone and He is the One who ultimately helps alleviate all suffering.
I mean- I'm not sure what to say. All I'm trying to say is that Jesus loves everyone and because of His love I want to be loving to everyone too. But love is honest and I'm trying convey the truth in a loving way.
What is there to say about getting along? The Bible says to try to live at peace with everyone as much as it's up to you. I have to agree with God says in The Bible as a Christian, so I'm sorry but I'm not going to be able to say that homosexuality is okay. But I'm also not saying the vile things groups like Westboro Church holds up on picket signs- which I find deplorable. I don't even like to think of them as a church because they don't look like Christ to me.
So what's the problem? People are free to choose to live as they wish. I'm not stopping anyone from that freedom. I don't think anyone should be bullied verbally or physically for any reason. That kind of violence is just as much a sin as any other. I find that deplorable and mourn the tragedies of cases like Matthew Sheppard.
I apologize again for any perceived antagonism or taunting, but that's really not my intention at all.
I just want to offer the alternative that Jesus offers- that's all.

 

[frogboy4]

How about exhibiting some of that grace you fellas preach so much about so much?

Okay- just wondering. I was trying to address a philosophical question as it relates to spiritual beliefs, but that's fine if you don't care to talk about it.

I'm not sure how I'm being insensitive and behaving like a bully. Yes, I referred to homosexuality as a sin. But of course, everyone has done wrong, straight or not. I was not trying to paint homosexuality as a bigger sin than anything else- my point was that everyone deals with evil. I understand that you don't consider love and courting relationships with the same sex to be wrong. But putting that aside, I think everyone can still agree that we've done wrong in some way or another.
I wasn't trying to taunt any people who identify as homosexual. I was only stating what The Bible says. And it says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
What piety are you referring to? I'm not trying to be pious. I've stated before in this thread and I'll state again that I am no better than anyone else. I have done many evil things in my life as well. I am a sinner forgiven by the grace of God through Jesus' death and Resurrection. That's it. I understand your position that you don't believe in Christ and don't accept His teachings. That's your choice.
But I thought we were getting along as it was.

I appreciate that you have made positive remarks about Christianity and seem to have an understanding spirit about Christian beliefs. However, at the core of Christian beliefs is that Jesus Christ is the only One who can truly change anyone and He is the One who ultimately helps alleviate all suffering.
I mean- I'm not sure what to say. All I'm trying to say is that Jesus loves everyone and because of His love I want to be loving to everyone too. But love is honest and I'm trying convey the truth in a loving way.
What is there to say about getting along? The Bible says to try to live at peace with everyone as much as it's up to you. I have to agree with God says in The Bible as a Christian, so I'm sorry but I'm not going to be able to say that homosexuality is okay. But I'm also not saying the vile things groups like Westboro Church holds up on picket signs- which I find deplorable. I don't even like to think of them as a church because they don't look like Christ to me.
So what's the problem? People are free to choose to live as they wish. I'm not stopping anyone from that freedom. I don't think anyone should be bullied verbally or physically for any reason. That kind of violence is just as much a sin as any other. I find that deplorable and mourn the tragedies of cases like Matthew Sheppard.
I apologize again for any perceived antagonism or taunting, but that's really not my intention at all.
I just want to offer the alternative that Jesus offers- that's all.

This very arrogant attitude is why many non believers mistakenly hate Christians and Christianity when it's really just the issue of one tactless representative. There's a big difference between honesty and aggression.

I accept that you're a Christian. There's no need for me to refer to it as some sort of psychological disorder because countless studies support that (I keep mentioning this item for purposes of balance and not necessarily because it's my personal belief). You should accept that I, and others, are gay without continually calling us sinners because your Bible says that. We get it. Where do you think the term flamer comes from? You've already shared your premise of sin many, many, many, many times and it's been digested. It ain't a secret!

I have no problem with you believing sin under the Christian perspective or that you believe being a gay person is among those lists of sins. However, belaboring your chosen belief of sin-allocation does constitute bullying and will be reported if continued. It serves no purpose other than to stir-the-pot and ignite anger. Why continue doing it if you know that is the end result? What is gained? You say you're sorry while maintaining this insensitivity.

This thread isn't a bible study or a forum for proselytizing. Every-other word from you is some conversion ploy or Bible verse. Most people actually have heard it, or at least enough of it. The aggressive, redundant and kind of rude way you've gone about communicating Christianity here would turn off most non believers.

This thread is one of sharing and understanding under our own current beliefs without legitimizing or de-legitimizing them. To unite, not change one another. Can't you be satisfied with that and save your sinning scriptures for another thread?

The truth is that NO, I don't believe I'm a sinner. I don't believe the "we're all sinners" sort of sentiment. Okay, it's scriptural, but parroting it in service of your point is transparently condescending. Speak for yourself, not for me. The concept of sin is one of your theology, not mine. You've already shared that countless times. I think it's a negative perspective, but it means something to you so I respect it. This isn't the place for those types of issues. There are many scientific studies that claim everybody is somewhat bisexual, whether they act on it or not, so would you like me to refer to you as a bisexual in half my posts? I'm sure you'd reject that and find it insulting. Continuing to offer that information in all of my posts would constitute a similar sort of bullying that you are perpetrating.

So quit throwing non-Christians in the same boat as you. Fine, you're a sinner. It seems you're exhibiting much of what you believe to be sin right now in your horrible attitude.

I believe we can share our perspectives without casting judgments of sin - no matter where they come from. I'm interested in embracing EVERYONE EQUALLY! I'm fine with folk not agreeing with gay people. I'm just not okay with receiving a moral judgment from your, or any, posts. That is a reportable offense.

PS- I believe that all of us, Christians and otherwise, are capable of love, good and charity no matter what our walk of life or belief/disbelief in Jesus. To claim otherwise is heavy-handed bigotry, plain and simple. It is a reportable offense on Muppet Central Forums.

 

[RedPiggy]

I really wish there were an active group of Christians that would counteract the bigots among them in these cases. In my mind that would be a win-win situation. They'd gain more followers and it could only help minorities gain more personal freedoms here and abroad.

I don’t think, though, that “fight fire with fire” will work here. Bigots already have a confrontational paranoid delusion that evil is out to get them. Calling them wrong just feeds this paranoid delusion. They already consider you evil, so they know anything you say is evil because your mouth opened and words came out. As the animated Penguin noted to Joker, “Living well is the best revenge.” I mean, you continue to say that Christians aren’t doing anything, and yet the US Navy (according to a thread on Beliefnet I just read) is going to start same-sex marriages, DOMA is being realized for the dumbness it is, people aren’t being set on fire for being gay on TV or movies (they are friends, they are confidants, etc) … I mean, when society is gradually becoming more tolerant DESPITE bigots, I feel the whole “Christians aren’t doing anything” stuff is a bunch of hooey.

It’s kind of like when I’ve seen Christians whine about how Muslims aren’t “opposing” the radicals. My question: “Do your Muslim neighbors attack you?" “No.” “Then what is your problem?" The fact they aren’t doing what the radicals are doing is proof of their lack of support.

I'm still amazed at many of the Yahoo article responses! There's a lot of hate still in the world and we'll never get rid of it.

And yet you hang on all the hate and seem to ignore when those jerks are called lots of uglier names by the rest of us.

If we were going to do that with anything, I'd prefer it be against curse words that no one should be using anyway.

But they’re effectively MAKING it a curse word.

God has already made it clear what His laws are regarding word usage and He says not to let anything unwholesome come out of your mouth except that which is useful for building others up.

I’d comment, but I think this time I shall decline.

He is the only one without sin

See, I am told to read it that way, but what I REALLY see is the joke that everyone in the crowd has ridden the town bicycle. “It takes two to tango ….”

As far as sin goes, non-Christians already know what Christians think of us.

Not … all … of … us.

James 2:10 says that breaking The Law at one point makes us guilty of breaking all of it.

That is his opinion, and while I see where he’s going with that, the REALITY is that actions and thoughts truly sit on a spectrum of morality. We do not shoot people for picking pockets (well, there was that one time, LOL), but we will gladly execute a mass murderer.

And God declares both homosexuality and adultery to be sins and that's why they can be equated as equally wrong.

You use James while ignoring the entire bible, which clearly has a hierarchy (borrowed from Babylonian and Egyptian case law) of morality. That’s not to say it’s all logical (me wearing pants is as bad as eating shrimp which is almost as bad as blaspheming the Spirit or something? Really?), but NOT EVERY CRIME IS TREATED THE SAME. I mean, if one is going to use the bible to justify an opinion, how’s about we use the whole thing?

How do you qualify right and wrong then?

What improves lives is right. What harms them is wrong. Come on, now – how do gay people HARM you?

But of course, everyone has done wrong, straight or not.

If you are just as big a “sinner” as frogboy, what gives you the right to lord it over him?

 

[frogboy4]

I don’t think, though, that “fight fire with fire” will work here. Bigots already have a confrontational paranoid delusion that evil is out to get them. Calling them wrong just feeds this paranoid delusion. They already consider you evil, so they know anything you say is evil because your mouth opened and words came out. As the animated Penguin noted to Joker, “Living well is the best revenge.” I mean, you continue to say that Christians aren’t doing anything, and yet the US Navy (according to a thread on Beliefnet I just read) is going to start same-sex marriages, DOMA is being realized for the dumbness it is, people aren’t being set on fire for being gay on TV or movies (they are friends, they are confidants, etc) … I mean, when society is gradually becoming more tolerant DESPITE bigots, I feel the whole “Christians aren’t doing anything” stuff is a bunch of hooey.

It’s kind of like when I’ve seen Christians whine about how Muslims aren’t “opposing” the radicals. My question: “Do your Muslim neighbors attack you?" “No.” “Then what is your problem?" The fact they aren’t doing what the radicals are doing is proof of their lack of support.

I'm confused here. I see Christianity as a higher-calling and not just a "get out of heck free" card so I hold them to a higher standard than the average atheist. Maybe that's unfair. I'm a graphic artist so promotion and public relations is in my wheelhouse. I'm very cautious about how gays are portrayed. Yes, I do make lovely fliers for drag shows, but not for other more lascivious club events out there. There's cash to be made in smut, but that's covered and I believe in being the balance for the culture by lending my talents to things that showcase a positive light. Smut don't need my help in any culture!

For every Pat Robertson preaching hatred there should be a just as visible, thoughtful Christian practicing compassion in helping those less fortunate that might be gay or non-Christian without having a conversion-angle both here and abroad. I definitely believe it's important for all of us, regardless of our walk of life, to voice opposition to brutality in all of its forms no matter who the perpetrator. I do not understand the advantage to anyone in being silent. “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

And yet you hang on all the hate and seem to ignore when those jerks are called lots of uglier names by the rest of us.

I don't understand this statement at all. There are so many more evident bigots on forums and message boards than in life. Many times the bigots far outnumber everyone else in Yahoo article replies. That's what I was referencing. Sure, there are sane heads - but much fewer than the loonies.

That is his opinion, and while I see where he’s going with that, the REALITY is that actions and thoughts truly sit on a spectrum of morality. We do not shoot people for picking pockets (well, there was that one time, LOL), but we will gladly execute a mass murderer.

yup!

What improves lives is right. What harms them is wrong. Come on, now – how do gay people HARM you?

yup!

If you are just as big a “sinner” as frogboy, what gives you the right to lord it over him?

I don't like being equated with GonzoLeaper in any way except maybe our love for Gonzo and the fact that we're both bipeds. I'm taking that last one as a given. I'm still shocked that Leaper hasn't taken issue with Gonzo's chicken fetish. He seems to be the least Jesusy Muppet. Well, next to Zoot who is apparently Jewish.

In all seriousness, I just don't accept the premise of sin and being thrown in the same boat as Leaper or the average drug addict on the street. I don't believe in the negative garbage "we are all sinners" statement no matter who says it. I choose to believe that "peoples are peoples" because it's more life-affirming. And Leaper is peoples too. More like Oscar peoples at the moment, but still very much peoples and should be equally valued as such.

 

[frogboy4]

Uganda’s anti-gay bill has been shelved for now due to a global outcry from international rights groups. Standing up for others can and does work. Woohoo! Now if only gay Ugandans could gain basic civil rights. Maybe someday. Right now it's enough that they didn't legally sanction the murder of gay people.

 

[RedPiggy]

I do not understand the advantage to anyone in being silent. “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

*sigh* Not screaming is doing nothing? How about befriending gay people? How about voting for gay marriage? How about not cringing when gays hug or kiss? How about ... I mean, really? You think the ONLY way to counter some idiot is to act like an idiot too? There was a snake at my old job. The "know it all", from a safe distance, went on and on about the biology of snakes and the danger to patients, etc. I quietly picked it up and released it far from the door outside. Which person was more effective, the talker or the doer?

Keep in mind that I have a pretty poor opinion of "protests". For me, sitting down chanting in the middle of traffic is quite different from getting someone some actual, physical help. I was accused of being racist at another old job because I said (during the massive Hispanic protests about illegal immigration and such) that if you want to prove you should have a right to work, you should, I dunno, ACTUALLY SHOW UP FOR WORK INSTEAD OF WHINING ON THE STREET CORNER. I was short-handed because an employee SKIPPED WORK to prove just how much he DESERVED to work! So, no, I will never believe that being loud is the same as being effective.

I'm still shocked that Leaper hasn't taken issue with Gonzo's chicken fetish.

Or the most famous Muppet couple, Kermit and Piggy. Heck, we just saw a video of not only a frog famous for his relationship with a pig, but he was flirting with human women!

Uganda’s anti-gay bill has been shelved for now due to a global outcry from international rights groups. Standing up for others can and does work.

Hmmm ...

Uganda’s parliament on Wednesday was forced to drop plans to debate a controversial bill that once proposed the death penalty for some gays and lesbians, but officials indicated lawmakers would debate it on Friday.

'emphasis mine'

Yup. All that screaming made them delay their decision by a couple of days. Gays everywhere can relax now ....

The bill’s author, David Bahati, has said a new version would not contain the death penalty, but no amended version has been released publicly.

Well, good, they're not going to die. One wonders just how spiffy their prisons are.

“The way I saw, if the bill was debated today, it would have been passed because most MPs were in its favor,u201D he said. “We were saved by the lack of quorum.”

So ... let's give a good pat on the ol' back for our good friend Political Absenteeism.

Homosexuality is highly unpopular in Uganda, and pastors in this Christian country speak out loudly against it. Bahati has said he thinks the bill would become law if voted on.

Local Christians are in full support, it seems.

U.S. Rep. Barney Frank said in a statement Tuesday he was disturbed that parliamentarians were again discussing the bill.

But ... but ... there was all that protesting! *rolls eyes*

“We’ve helped stop this bill before, and we can do it again,u201D the group’s website said.

They stopped nothing, because they've been thinking about it for years.

Seriously, frogboy ... that article makes my case for me.