Statler and Waldorf Puppets

[Was Once Ernie]

There is no fair use provision for "collectors" in copyright law.

Actually, I think there is. You can own copyrighted material and even trade it. The problem here is that someone is making PROFIT off that material, and that crosses the line.

If someone wanted to make a Muppet replica and give it to you for your private collection (meaning you don't use it commercially), that would be okay. As soon as they sell it to you and make money off someone else's intellectual property, they are breaking the law.

That's why you are still allowed to record programs off the air FOR YOUR OWN USE. But you can't sell those recordings. That violates copyright.

 

[shtick]

This kind of rides on the whole piracy/copyright thing in general. I'm sure people who oppose the sale of muppet replicas wouldn't copy a CD or a DVD or bootleg software. How about just live and let live. I'm not crazy on the muppet replica thing, but if people want to do it, thats their own business. Its not like MC is respinsible for it.

 

[ScrapsFlippy]

DevonMiles, Amicus -

Yeah, you're right. We're just a bunch of talentless hacks who are jealous of the few good guys out there filling a very real need for Muppet replicas. What's the harm, anyway?

I was totally wrong. Geez, they're only stupid puppets! What's the harm in watering down the brand even more?

What's the harm in someone making an honest buck by hijacking designs that some artist sweated over? Maybe I should stop complaining and start churning out Gonzo replicas. Gonzo's hard to do. If I got the design right, I could make a mint! Who cares if it's Jim's original design. I am well within my rights to make money off it.

Obviously, I don't care about the Muppets. If I did, I would be making and selling unlicensed replicas. Thanks for showing me the way!

-- Scrapsflippy.

(Oh crap . . . there I go with the sarcasm again.)

 

[MGov]

What about the companies (like Gund) that have bought the rights to make and sell puppets that are the likeness of the Muppet characters?

I kinda wish I was more unethical. I could make some good money.

 

[Buck-Beaver]

Just to clarify the issue, these are the exclusive rights a copyright holder has in regards to a work (in this case the Statler and Waldorf puppets) and only the copyright holder (in this case the Muppets Holding Company) has the right to do the following with the puppets:

1. The right to produce copies or reproductions of the work and to sell those copies (like replica puppets)
2. The right to import or export the work (not really applicable here)
3. The right to create derivative works (make and sell, say, Statler and Waldorf coffee mugs or T-Shirts)
4. The right to perform or display the work publicly (say in a live show or on T.V. show or web series)
5. The right to sell or assign these rights to others (only they can grant permission for a company or individual to make and sell copies)

The exceptions are fair use. Fair use is different in every country (for example, you can download music from P2P networks legally in Canada, but not in the U.S.) but the explicit exceptions that allow you to reproduce or copy a copyrighted work legally and make a profit are criticism or satire, news, teaching, scholarship, or research. There is specific case law and special exceptions for various things, but there is simply no legal basis for taking a copyrighted work, copying it and make money off it without the copyright holder's permission. End of story.

I'm puzzled by Amicus' comment that there's no problem with these unless they're not the real puppets. There would be absolutely no problem selling two of the real puppets (assuming they weren't stolen) because once a copyright holder sells or gives away a work the person who buys/receives it can turn around and sell it for as much as they like (although they can't make copies). This is called the "first-sale doctrine" and it's the legal basis for reselling things like books and CDs on ebay.

For example, I recently had some Audrey II puppets I helped build for a production of LSOH two years ago given to me because the company they were built for doesn't want them anymore. I repaired them and I'm thinking of selling them, which I could do legally because they were legitimate props made for a production licensed by the copyright holder. What I cannot do is start making more and selling those. That would be copyright infringement.

Anyways, any further copyright discussion should be directed to this thread which was specifically created to keep this sort of lengthy, legal debate out of the puppetry forum.

Oh and I totally agree about the crappy looking puppets made by Gund and Applause. They had that one Kermit puppet in the `90s that was OK, but that's about it. All good Muppet puppets that have been (legally) sold were the ones made in the `70s which I believe the Muppet workshop consulted on. Coincidence? I think not.

It's interesting to see Master replicas getting a license from Disney and making replicas from the actual patterns. There's clearly a demand for this kind of thing.

 

[ravagefrackle]

DevonMiles, Amicus -

Yeah, you're right. We're just a bunch of talentless hacks who are jealous of the few good guys out there filling a very real need for Muppet replicas. What's the harm, anyway?

I was totally wrong. Geez, they're only stupid puppets! What's the harm in watering down the brand even more?

What's the harm in someone making an honest buck by hijacking designs that some artist sweated over? Maybe I should stop complaining and start churning out Gonzo replicas. Gonzo's hard to do. If I got the design right, I could make a mint! Who cares if it's Jim's original design. I am well within my rights to make money off it.

Obviously, I don't care about the Muppets. If I did, I would be making and selling unlicensed replicas. Thanks for showing me the way!

-- Scrapsflippy.

(Oh crap . . . there I go with the sarcasm again.)

NOW THATS SARCASM< lol

 

[Zoot The Saxman]

LOL, LOL........

WOW, I swear......I didn't know MC had SOOOO Many Lawyers....LOL Buck, Scraps.....When did you's Graduate? Ha ha ha haaaaa Did you go to Harvard??? or Yale??? ha ha ha ha LOL
I think you guys should call Bill O'rielly, Maybe HE could tell ya all about copyrights, and tradmarks, and whatever else you guys are experts in.

HEY RAVAGE FRACKLE.......How've ya been brother??? Whats goin on....haven't heard from ya in a while!!!!

 

[ScrapsFlippy]

Zoot -

I can't speak for Buck, but I know why I react the way I do at this sort of thing. I'm working on creating lasting creative properties, and I don't want to spend my time hunting down and pressing the law against the temples of those who would try to water down my properties.

Look, I don't have an uncle who is a lawyer and I didn't attend Harvard or Yale. I certainly don't know Bill O'Reilly, and I can't imagine what he would have to do with anything. The rest of you can live in a fantasy world where nothing is really owned, and anyone is free to "cash in" on the intellectual property of artists you claim to respect (or if not claim, at least exhibit by frequenting Muppet Central). It's your karma. But criticizing those of us who call a spade a spade is stupid. A copyright is a copyright. I CAN'T BELIEVE I'm in a position where I need to DEFEND that idea. To quote the frog: "Sheesh!"

Spark up another one and go back to your couch. Just tell yourself nothing matters anyway. They're only stupid puppets, and Scrapsflippy is just a stupid puppet nerd.

-- Scraps

(I was going to let this die, but I will not be made fun of for caring.)

 

[Zoot The Saxman]

My Friend.....I Am an Artist, Have been for 10 years....Have a BA in fine arts...I know what it means to Create a work from scratch. I know the work that goes into it. And ALL about Copyrights. But nobody is claiming that they are Authentic. My God! I threw that comment in for laughs....Its gettin way to serious. Preach the gosple some place else, wanna sell crazy?? Sell it someplace else...we're all stocked up here!

 

[ScrapsFlippy]

Okay "Friend." I'll take my copyright-thumping elsewhere. I'm sure that by belittling my concern and by extension me you only meant to be funny. I hope that worked out for you.

And thanks, really, for putting me in my place. You are so right.

It is crazy to care.

-- Scraps