Should the Muppets retire?

[MWoO]

No, I don't think that is true, at least not with me. I see a lot of the bad, it just doesn't bother me to the point where I want the muppets to retire. I know there was al ot of bad stuff in MWoO. Ashanti's bad acting for one. Some people are just seeing stuff as bad that was there before. Violence, for one, was always part of the muppets. The violence in MWoO is nothing more than fantasy violence and Jim Henson said that that was fine on TMS. Now it seems Jim Henson's old work has been glorified as this pure kiddy stuff when that is not true at all. In fact it is Jim Henson's worst nightmare I believe.

 

[Skeeter Muppet]

How any true fan could be alright with such a terrible decline is beyond me. Take that however you'd like.

So in other words, a "true fan" would only be someone who thinks the same way you and Frogster do, who believes that the Muppets are doomed to failure no matter what they do, all because they don't have Jim's guidance anymore? Who, the minute something happens with the Muppets that you don't like, turns away from them?

Sounds more like a "fairweather fan" to me. A "true" fan would take the bad with the good, and not be so quick to dismiss projects and such just because it doesn't fit into your vision of what the Muppets "should" be.

EDIT: And before you start in with trying to explain what you really meant, remember that you're the one who said "Take that however you'd like". That's how I'm taking it.

-Kim

 

[Cantus Rock]

I'm glad that at least one person here took the time to read my post and logically reply. Beau, good job sir. This is how actual debate should work. You're a good man, and if you'd like to continue our civil discussion, please PM me any time, being that it seems you are the only one thus far that has been willing to debate in this manner.

Now, then. I love when people cite Alice Cooper as the end-all bad influence of the Muppets. Times have seriously changed. Alice Cooper was a character; nothing more than an act, that was shocking by 70's standards. He sits around playing golf here in Florida now; it was an act. Snoop Dogg and Tarentino are people who live up to their bad influences; Snoop is a gangster who does massive amounts of drugs and porn, and Tarentino makes the most violent films known to man. Thankfully Snoop was cut from IVMMC, but the fact that his scene was considered at all is a testament to the lack of direction. You can go ahead and rationalize these people, but its been done many times before, and doesn't change the facts.

If you're coming away from my posts feeling that I'm chocking up Jim's work to "kiddy stuff," there is a serious lack of comprehension going on. Jim's work was classic, timeless, and had-widespread appeal; children and parents alike could enjoy Jim Henson's work. As an adult, I no longer laugh at the new productions' humor because it is no longer classic, zany, inspired work; THIS is the kiddy stuff that you speak of, not because its always geared directly towards children, but because its totally sophmoric and lacks the genuine feel that Jim and Jerry Juhl brought. Scooter in the cage, baby; I'm sure Jim would've been thrilled with that.

And to be sure, I will never "turn away" from the Muppets, and I have not now. I just wish that since the Muppets are going to continue their careers, that they maintain the integrity and classic nature that Jim created rather than becoming felt pop-culture drivel. And me, fairweather? Hah, I won't even dignify that.

 

[Frogster]

Cantus Rock,
I'm very glad that you see the declination of the Muppets the way I do. And about the violence, Jim once said that, even though there's a lot of violence on The Muppet Show, there's a huge difference between someone getting stabbed by a knife and an obvious toy being thrown around. The people of the Muppets just don't care who the person is, as long as long as she or he's considered popular by an older audience... that's how they try and get adult viewing. And like you, I'm not turning away from the Muppets.

Beau,
Thank you for being a good mediator. I'm glad you have the sense to debate the way you do. Very mature on your part. Keep it up, bud.

MWoO,
I don't hate everything the Muppets do nowadays. That "You May Find Yourself" number on MT is the one thing I loved most about the show... kinda like an updated Happy Feet. Speaking of which, Happy Feet has always been popular; it's one of Kermit's top three most famous songs. And I do see the flaws of the past... there's been some pretty bad-acting guest stars on The Muppet Show before. Yeah, I said it; there's been BAD episodes of The Muppet Show. But unlike today, the good outweighed the bad. I try to stay positive. I've only seen 32 episodes out of 120 of TMS, and I've seen all of the MT shows, and most of them were crappy. I mean, weren't they cancelled? I was born January 3, 1985. I don't have a lot of concious memories of when Jim was around. I saw The Jim Henson Hour (which was okay) and The Muppets Go To Disney World. So I've seen more post-Jim than the stuff I did when he was alive. I'm not one of those that you say watched so much of the old stuff that I say "la la la" to the new. And I do like Eric and Steve... at least, in some respects, somebody's doing the voices. But just look at the road they've taken, MWoO. They've gotten to where they get faces that most people will enjoy, despite whatever background they have (Tarantino, Snoop, Ashanti) and other terrible actors. They're just trying to stay current when they should try to be creative and inspiring. And that Law & Order thing... that's a whole different show. The people who do Family Guy are trying to reach the same kind of group the writers for the Muppets are trying to get. Law & Order's a different kinda show--- it's NOT a comedy. The Muppets are supposed to be funny, whereas Family Guy IS funny. I understand that Family Guy is more adult jokes, but it's a comedy all the same. I don't wanna see the Muppets stoop to that kinda comedy to get ratings. Like Cantus Rock pointed out earlier, how do you think about Scooter being gay in IAVMMCM? If you don't think they're trying to portray Scooter like that, you need to look at what he's wearing and how his eyes are squinted. That's not how they should have made the Muppets look without Kermit.

 

[Beauregard]

Like Cantus Rock pointed out earlier, how do you think about Scooter being gay in IAVMMCM? If you don't think they're trying to portray Scooter like that, you need to look at what he's wearing and how his eyes are squinted. That's not how they should have made the Muppets look without Kermit.

Well, first off, I disagree on this point about Scooter being gay/cage dancing showing that the Muppets need retireing. The VMC arguments are many and varied, and I used to be totally on your side about them, but I have watched that film a lot and even am writing a muppet fan-fic based on that alternate reality, and I think that if you take that "alternate" reality as the reality of the Muppets today, that's not a good example.

I'm going to take amoment to go off on a little tangent about VMC. This film was (to me) a heartfelt story of Kermit's. Yes, he did say he wished he had never been born. Yes, the film did show Scooter cage dancing. But these things can't be judged out of context. From the very start, this movie was obviously a darker-feel Muppet film. Why? Becuase they were not trying to be haha hilarious slap-stick funny, but rather, quietly low-lit emotional at the same time as paradyous (is that a word???) Ok, so, I'll be the first to admit they may have failed on their attempt to make this movie appealing to adults and children. (Athough I believe this film was not intended for children...)

KSY, was for kiddies and everyone was in uproar.

VMC, went exactly the opposite. And everyone was in uproar.

MWOO, I havn't seen.

That is my opinion on VMC. Now to get back to the questian on hand...

Sounds more like a "fairweather fan" to me. A "true" fan would take the bad with the good, and not be so quick to dismiss projects and such just because it doesn't fit into your vision of what the Muppets "should" be.

I think we should stay above the judgeing of fan-dom. Throwing insults is kinda..childish?

To me, a true fan is one that is willing to point out the bad and the good, and not prepared to put up his hands and say, "Well, that's Wonderfull! Ooh, I love this! The Muppets got dismembered." On the other hand, a muppet fan wouldn't grab a hammer and smash the film becuase there is gratuitious violence in it. A Mupept fan should be in between. Willing to accept that the Muppets may be going through a low point, but not willing to shut them down.

One thing I find confusing is exactly where people do stand? For first they say the muppets are becomign childish, then, the muppets are too adult...*enter large questian mark*

Thoughtfull Questian: Was not Micheal Jackson on Sesame Street?

Anyway, to change the theme again, I wouldn't have said all the cameos in Muppet films are squeaky clean (an expresision I love so much I'll say it again, Squeaky Clean, sorry..um...). Also, i don' think the Muppets go out and think, "Now who's a sleezy, bad boy who can be in our film." They think, "What is totally today, that everyone loves that I can get into this film." Sorry, let me rephrase, "What is totally today, that The Majority loves that I can get into this film."

Snoop Dog, Taranto, etc, these are people that the "now'a'days" audience wanna see. WHich is somethign that we should be sorry about. We should perhaps be saddened that the world wants to see these people...but we certainly shouldn't spite the Muppets having the people that people wanna see on their shows. If they were primeraly about morals, yes, I would find that disterbing. But, isn't it true that the Muppets are not Primeraly about morals???

 

[TogetherAgain]

Good point, Beau, they're not primarily about morals. They're primarily about entertaining. "Millions of people happy," right?

 

[dpurves]

If you're coming away from my posts feeling that I'm chocking up Jim's work to "kiddy stuff," there is a serious lack of comprehension going on. Jim's work was classic, timeless, and had-widespread appeal; children and parents alike could enjoy Jim Henson's work. As an adult, I no longer laugh at the new productions' humor because it is no longer classic, zany, inspired work; THIS is the kiddy stuff that you speak of, not because its always geared directly towards children, but because its totally sophmoric and lacks the genuine feel that Jim and Jerry Juhl brought. Scooter in the cage, baby; I'm sure Jim would've been thrilled with that.

At 34 years old, I still look back at Jim Henson's work, both the show and the movies, as some of the finest things I've ever experienced. I have probably watched TMM more times than any other movie, ever, and will continue to watch it, as somehow it never gets stale to me, despite the now dated jokes. My friends (the same age) and I still remember THS very fondly, and I have little doubt that I will buy the season set on DVD when I can. There was a magic in those productions that very likely can never be duplicated. I wish I could watch a new Muppet production and get those good feelings again, but so far it just hasn't happened. Even the movies that I thought were "all right", like MTI and MCC, just didn't do it for me.

The Muppets just don't seem to have it anymore. Can they, or will they, ever get it back? I don't know. Actually, since I'm a pessimist, I should probably say that I do know, and that I don't believe they'll ever get it back. Perhaps what worked once for the Muppets won't work again, but maybe what has to happen is that the Muppets need to find themselves.

All that being said, I still don't want them to retire. But I also want them to be as entertaining as they once were. I think they're capable of much more than doing Pizza Hut ads with Jessica Simpson. I remember a time when I couldn't wait for the next Muppet production. I'd really like to see that happen. Somewhere along the line someone apparently got it into their heads that these are puppets, so they must be for kids. Wrong. They're for everyone. They're like the classic Looney Tune shorts from so long ago, which had elements in them that would make them appealing to kids, but also some deeper nuances that would reach the grown-ups. If there are no more Muppets, there is zero chance for change and improvement, which is why I still want them around, and will continue to watch and support them in the hopes that one day they will find a way to recapture what they once had.

Sorry for rambling. It's just that, like others, I really hate the idea of the Muppets being jokes and seen as silly reminders of a time long gone, but I hate the idea of them being gone completely even worse.

 

[MWoO]

Snoop Dog was a weird choice, but Tarantino? HE MAKES MOVIES!!! That makes him an awful person? Is he even ANYONE"S role model? Seriously, he had a like am inute cameo for God's sake. THAT is a reason to retire the muppets? You're insane.

Alice Cooper, at the time, was this Satanic guy. On the show he worked for the freaking Devil. Sure, you can look back now and say he's some dude golfing in Florida, but at the time he was a real concern. Funny the way you can look back and see how that was silly, but you can't see how your thoughts on similar famous people today are silly.

BTW, I am sure many of TMS guest stars did drugs. It was the 70's after all. In fact i would bet that Debbie Harry was high while on the show.

"Originally Posted by Frogster
Like Cantus Rock pointed out earlier, how do you think about Scooter being gay in IAVMMCM? If you don't think they're trying to portray Scooter like that, you need to look at what he's wearing and how his eyes are squinted. That's not how they should have made the Muppets look without Kermit."

Ok, now I think you are just a bigot. Closing your eyes and wearing black shorts means you are gay now? And since you brought it up as a negative i assume you think being ga is a negative too. Oh I bet Jim would love you and your ideals. Ever hear of Richard Hunt? Just wondering...

Anyway, dancing at a cage in a club in an alternate universe does not make you gay. Having sex with another man however does. Now when we see Scooter doing that, or any character engaged in any sex act witrh anyone, then I can agree with you and say the muppets have become horrible and should be put away. Dancing in a cage is not exactly the same thing you nut. Why don;t you calm down and stop looking for things that are not there.

New flash, Jim's work is not really timeless. It refelcts the times. I would not call TMM Timeless. I would not call TMS timeless. I mean how many times did Piggy use the term "turkey"? That's so 70's.

Anyway, I am sick of debating this. The fact is I have a different set of values then you two. For one, i don't care what you do as long as it doesnt hurt anyone. I don't care if Snoop Dog smokes pot. As long as he doesnt make me do it and doesn't kill anyone, I don't care. I don't care about violent MOVIES. Apprently you too have these high moral standards and you think everyone should have them as well. Well that is your hang up, not mine. If you want to stop watching new productions that's your issue. As long as you don't go protesting them and forcing others not to watch, i don't really care.

 

[MWoO]

At 34 years old, I still look back at Jim Henson's work, both the show and the movies, as some of the finest things I've ever experienced. I have probably watched TMM more times than any other movie, ever, and will continue to watch it, as somehow it never gets stale to me, despite the now dated jokes. My friends (the same age) and I still remember THS very fondly, and I have little doubt that I will buy the season set on DVD when I can. There was a magic in those productions that very likely can never be duplicated. I wish I could watch a new Muppet production and get those good feelings again, but so far it just hasn't happened. Even the movies that I thought were "all right", like MTI and MCC, just didn't do it for me.

The Muppets just don't seem to have it anymore. Can they, or will they, ever get it back? I don't know. Actually, since I'm a pessimist, I should probably say that I do know, and that I don't believe they'll ever get it back. Perhaps what worked once for the Muppets won't work again, but maybe what has to happen is that the Muppets need to find themselves.

All that being said, I still don't want them to retire. But I also want them to be as entertaining as they once were. I think they're capable of much more than doing Pizza Hut ads with Jessica Simpson. I remember a time when I couldn't wait for the next Muppet production. I'd really like to see that happen. Somewhere along the line someone apparently got it into their heads that these are puppets, so they must be for kids. Wrong. They're for everyone. They're like the classic Looney Tune shorts from so long ago, which had elements in them that would make them appealing to kids, but also some deeper nuances that would reach the grown-ups. If there are no more Muppets, there is zero chance for change and improvement, which is why I still want them around, and will continue to watch and support them in the hopes that one day they will find a way to recapture what they once had.

Sorry for rambling. It's just that, like others, I really hate the idea of the Muppets being jokes and seen as silly reminders of a time long gone, but I hate the idea of them being gone completely even worse.

It's simple. You grew up with the original performers, and no one else seems right. That's just the way it is with a lot of people. It's a bias that a lot of fans have.

 

[Drtooth]

Oh boy... THIS discussion again.....

Well, firstly and formostly, I do not cite the Muppets as the problem... it's the Projects. For the Muppets themselves to really go downhill, I think they'd have bad impersonators who just read scripts blankly and open and close the mouth out of sync, and make the production all amaturish.
I feel a lot of "new production" anger is displaced at the Muppets, not the terrible writers, or the over all poor quality of the entire TV medium in this day and age. All the Sesame Street "Isn't as good" arguments always point to characters like Elmo, or Baby Bear... not to the pushing of the inclusion of them.

Personally, I think the Muppets are still top notch, but you can't make any of the later stuff work no matter what you do. And that seems the case with pretty much any show that's still on the air.

The Simpsons isn't as fresh and funny as it has been 6+ seasons ago. Sure, the Gay Marriage and overpriced perscription episodes were pretty good, but they lose potential with atrocious writing. I mean, there was one episode that could have been a funny stab at the childhood obesity epidemic (the one where the school gets new vending machines) but it turned into a bunch of unfunny "fat Camp" gags. The new writers of the Simpsons string together unfunny gags loosely formong a plot, usually about how many stupid jobs Homer can have in a season... and then make 5 unfunny jokes about how stupid those episodes are.

Don't even get me started on SNL. Even the unfunniest popular people left to do movies. Who the shell is in the cast now?

Personally, I feel Eric is breathing life into Oz's characters better than Oz can do himself. He doesn't have the passion for it anymore, and even if he did do it, it's a heavily scripted Dub, knocking out what Frank did best... Improvisation. David Rudman's Cookie Monster needed warming up to, but I think Eric's Grover and Fozzie are seemless.

I'll reiterate that the problem is the writing and the projects. Of course, how ever bad OZ was, it was still the most interresting thing I've seen on ABC.... the channel that proudly boasts horridly safe and boring family sitcoms like Rodney and According to Jim.

I still think the way to get the Muppets back on track is to get better writers and to get more analitical with scripts passed to them. I admit MCC, MTI, and some of MFS were all well written. VMX was good, but a bit too frantic, and the script seemed to go off on tangents.... OZ could have been much much better, had it not incorporated Pop music and Pop Idols. I guess the Pop was Disney's idea to "Mainstream" the characters.

Of course, then you can blame the public for it's odd tastes. I mean, they still like reality shows (you know, scripted stuff that could never happen is reality) even though the novelty wore off years ago. They love their blondehaired bimbos and their bubble gum music... and like it or not, they'll NEVER get rid of AFV.