• Welcome to the Muppet Central Forum!
    You are viewing our forum as a guest. Join our free community to post topics and start private conversations. Please contact us if you need help.
  • Christmas Music
    Our 24th annual Christmas Music Merrython is underway on Muppet Central Radio. Listen to the best Muppet Christmas music of all-time through December 25.
  • Macy's Thanksgiving Parade
    Let us know your thoughts on the Sesame Street appearance at the annual Macy's Parade.
  • Jim Henson Idea Man
    Remember the life. Honor the legacy. Inspire your soul. The new Jim Henson documentary "Idea Man" is now streaming exclusively on Disney+.
  • Back to the Rock Season 2
    Fraggle Rock Back to the Rock Season 2 has premiered on AppleTV+. Watch the anticipated new season and let us know your thoughts.
  • Bear arrives on Disney+
    The beloved series has been off the air for the past 15 years. Now all four seasons are finally available for a whole new generation.
  • Sam and Friends Book
    Read our review of the long-awaited book, "Sam and Friends - The Story of Jim Henson's First Television Show" by Muppet Historian Craig Shemin.

Seven Years Later: Disney buys Muppets and Bear

Bannanasketch

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
Messages
739
Reaction score
178
*jumps into conversation*

I'm gonna go with Heralde on this. I don't think that Disney was a definite Christian company but there were Christian themes in several movies. I sometimes think that people lose sense of what that really means. Alot of people out there think that if a Christian theme in a film, that must mean that they're preaching to us and we have to get rid of it. Or some people might think that they have to represent all religions in the movie if they're going to represent one. This is not true. Just becuase there is a certain religous theme in a movie, it does not mean that the company is blatantly supporting that faith. Disney does not definitely support Christianity but they can still put those themes into their movies (For example, Narnia.) So, Disney in no way tries to have a Christian Supremacist message into their films and that is not what Heralde or Starchamber is trying to say here.

Oh, and BTW, Walt Disney was a Christian. :smile:
 

Drtooth

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2002
Messages
31,717
Reaction score
6,710
Maybe people are thinking about the "Disney was an Anti-Semite" thing... I'm completely lost with it and just skimming through.


There is no greater quote I could say than this:

If the Muppets were under JHC, you could forget seeing a Muppet film, much less the sort of stuff we've been seeing since 2009. You could forget about a big Muppet comeback. While Im happy for JHC regarding the success of Dinosaur Train and Sid the Science Kid, as well as continuing production work for offbeat films...they can barely stand on their two legs in the overall scheme of things, and the Muppets would not be given justice. Just a sad reality
Okay... Unmade Disney projects:

America's Next Top Muppet (stupid idea anyway, was sure to suck)
Muppet mockumentary (actually kind of sad this one didn't see the light of day)
2008 Presidential special (Would have been rushed and dated, and not all that funny)
Halloween special (held over for being rushed one year, held over another because they didn't know exactly when the movie was going to film... might happen this year).

Unmade Henson projects JUSt of the Muppets...
uhhh.....

There have been several show ideas, including the Fox show which never happened, several scripts were looked at and passed around, hungry to do another telefilm after the success of VMX, and NOTHING happened for years until Oz... uhh... there were 2 cartoon shows planned, but to be fair, they decided against them themselves... uh...

As you can see, they didn't even get to the focused rejected proposal stage. And that's JUST the Muppets. We have a Fraggle Movie that will happen when Hades freezes over (and maybe not even then), Dark Crystal 2, which will keep coming this much closer to being made before they put it in permanent moth balls, a Doozer CGI cartoon that will yeah right happen :rolleyes: not to mention all these unused pilots for internet shows that are half finished. And I'm not even counting the stuff that made it to air for 3 glorious episodes.

Let's be honest. If Henson still had control the BEST we could hope for is a TV special or Telefilm down the line. Their tent poles, once again are Puppet Up tours and Dinosaur Train. Now I'm happy they're successful, but a CGI show (forget what country it's from) with Canadian Voice actors (not even Henson puppeteer voice overs) that only really has them as a producing credit.... that's not really that great, if you ask me.

Sure, there are some things that bug me about Disney. Why do they insist on hiding Bear in a pile while cheap CGI Dora clones are their preschooler fare? Come on... at least let the reruns out to play. They're dragging their feet on Season 4 for whatever reason (still could be beyond their control music rights), and I'm not happy with politicking with Boom's comic license. Plus, would it KILL them to get some Muppet stuff in stores regularly? They're starting to carry Marvel stuff, granted, unoriginal products you can find other places... some new shirts would be nice. But Disney's pretty much the ONLY entertainment company that knows what they're doing.

Warner Bros? if it wasn't for Batman or Scooby-Doo, they'd go bankrupt. They said, "You know what would make Yogi Bear even better? Making it a total ripoff of the Garfield film!" Would you want the Muppets somewhere they can't even market their own Looney Tunes correctly?

Sony... Oh ho ho! Look at what they've done to the Smurfs... prior relationship with Henson nothing....

Universal completely disowned Jay Ward productions after Bullwinkle flopped.

That's about it... all entertainment is owned by like 5 companies.

The only other deal that happened after EMTV I would have enjoyed was the fifty fifty Classic Media/ Sesame Workshop co-ownership.. but it was a co-ownership. One petty squabble and it's 1960's Batman time...
 

frogboy4

Inactive Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2002
Messages
10,080
Reaction score
358
*jumps into conversation*

I'm gonna go with Heralde on this. I don't think that Disney was a definite Christian company but there were Christian themes in several movies. I sometimes think that people lose sense of what that really means. Alot of people out there think that if a Christian theme in a film, that must mean that they're preaching to us and we have to get rid of it. Or some people might think that they have to represent all religions in the movie if they're going to represent one. This is not true. Just becuase there is a certain religous theme in a movie, it does not mean that the company is blatantly supporting that faith. Disney does not definitely support Christianity but they can still put those themes into their movies (For example, Narnia.) So, Disney in no way tries to have a Christian Supremacist message into their films and that is not what Heralde or Starchamber is trying to say here.

Oh, and BTW, Walt Disney was a Christian.
Agreed! :smile:

Maybe people are thinking about the "Disney was an Anti-Semite" thing... I'm completely lost with it and just skimming through.


There is no greater quote I could say than this:



Okay... Unmade Disney projects:

America's Next Top Muppet (stupid idea anyway, was sure to suck)
Muppet mockumentary (actually kind of sad this one didn't see the light of day)
2008 Presidential special (Would have been rushed and dated, and not all that funny)
Halloween special (held over for being rushed one year, held over another because they didn't know exactly when the movie was going to film... might happen this year).

Unmade Henson projects JUSt of the Muppets...
uhhh.....

There have been several show ideas, including the Fox show which never happened, several scripts were looked at and passed around, hungry to do another telefilm after the success of VMX, and NOTHING happened for years until Oz... uhh... there were 2 cartoon shows planned, but to be fair, they decided against them themselves... uh...

As you can see, they didn't even get to the focused rejected proposal stage. And that's JUST the Muppets. We have a Fraggle Movie that will happen when Hades freezes over (and maybe not even then), Dark Crystal 2, which will keep coming this much closer to being made before they put it in permanent moth balls, a Doozer CGI cartoon that will yeah right happen :rolleyes: not to mention all these unused pilots for internet shows that are half finished. And I'm not even counting the stuff that made it to air for 3 glorious episodes.

Let's be honest. If Henson still had control the BEST we could hope for is a TV special or Telefilm down the line. Their tent poles, once again are Puppet Up tours and Dinosaur Train. Now I'm happy they're successful, but a CGI show (forget what country it's from) with Canadian Voice actors (not even Henson puppeteer voice overs) that only really has them as a producing credit.... that's not really that great, if you ask me.

Sure, there are some things that bug me about Disney. Why do they insist on hiding Bear in a pile while cheap CGI Dora clones are their preschooler fare? Come on... at least let the reruns out to play. They're dragging their feet on Season 4 for whatever reason (still could be beyond their control music rights), and I'm not happy with politicking with Boom's comic license. Plus, would it KILL them to get some Muppet stuff in stores regularly? They're starting to carry Marvel stuff, granted, unoriginal products you can find other places... some new shirts would be nice. But Disney's pretty much the ONLY entertainment company that knows what they're doing.

Warner Bros? if it wasn't for Batman or Scooby-Doo, they'd go bankrupt. They said, "You know what would make Yogi Bear even better? Making it a total ripoff of the Garfield film!" Would you want the Muppets somewhere they can't even market their own Looney Tunes correctly?

Sony... Oh ho ho! Look at what they've done to the Smurfs... prior relationship with Henson nothing....

Universal completely disowned Jay Ward productions after Bullwinkle flopped.

That's about it... all entertainment is owned by like 5 companies.

The only other deal that happened after EMTV I would have enjoyed was the fifty fifty Classic Media/ Sesame Workshop co-ownership.. but it was a co-ownership. One petty squabble and it's 1960's Batman time...
Double agreed! :wink:
 

beaker

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2002
Messages
7,761
Reaction score
858
You guys see the genius of Jim Henson and his legacy.

So many Christian churches use puppets pretty much patterned off the classic Muppet look. The LGBT community can find great anchoring and celebration within many things Muppety and Henson. In 1969 Sesame Street said to America: This is the inner city ghetto. And you're going to have your kids waking up to this ghetto of celebration, education and awesomeness for the rest of their lives.

Sesame Workshop has made it a mission to bring the Sesame Street muppets to places where ethnic and religious hatred has ruined whole generations...and has tried in part to reconcile a new generation. Ethnic Albanian Muslims/Serbian Christians. Irish Catholics/Protestants. Africa, Southeast Asia, the Middle East. Even the joint Israeli/Palestinian/Jordanian efforts bridging Jewish and Muslim cultural traditions.

As highlighted in Harry Belefonte's famous number or Fraggle Rock, the Muppets are about inclusion and bringing in everyone.
 

beaker

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2002
Messages
7,761
Reaction score
858
Tolerance is not acceptance of a belief. It's merely accepting the right of others to follow it without enforcing personal judgment. That's a good thing in my book. However, that sometimes gets confused by all groups as the need for personal conversion in order to be tolerant. That is not so and never should be.

Case and point, one young pop star just stated his belief that being gay is a choice and that womens' reproductive rights shouldn't be. He was certainly baited and maybe he misspoke. I kind of figure the statement wasn't fully formed or thought through. Maybe he didn't misspeak and he was expressing his right to disagree with people. He's a self-professed role model so that topic will be explored. It's fine if fans stop buying his records because of it. It doesn't mean they're intolerant of his views that he has every right to state. Some people don't want to line the wallets of influential people with whom they disagree. That's why we don't usually know people's point of view no matter what it may be. It alienates others. There are carefully crafted ways to state one's beliefs that minimize such alienation and that's always been the case.

Being thoughtful (not PC or unPC) should be a way of life for everyone. To me that's the Muppety method and one I hope and believe will continue under Disney ownership. They can get away with a lot of things and let's hope they continue to do so with the heart that always remains intact. :smile:
Bieber is the Elmo of the pop world(ie: all over the place and annoying) I don't ever watch tv and I can't go anywhere online or shopping without hearing or seeing him.

I honestly don't think too many follow what pop idols say, be it positive or negative. Unless it's the Dixie Chicks circa 2003, rarely does what pop icons or music stars say hold too much sway
 

Convincing John

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2003
Messages
1,243
Reaction score
195
So many Christian churches use puppets pretty much patterned off the classic Muppet look.
And yet...so much of the time, I've seen so much Christian puppetry that's just terrible. Either they do terrible lip-synch, create either creepy puppets or ones that completely ignore the "Magic Triangle" to give them focus. I've seen so many puppets like that.

Then there are things like this...or this...or this which simply defy explanation.

But back on topic...there have been some times where I have been wary of the Muppets' being owned by Disney. Still, you gotta think, what state would the Muppets be in if still owned by Henson and the deal was never made? I'd like to see the Fraggle movie made, but man...I've lost faith in that ever getting done. Pity. It sounds like it would've been a good film.

Convincing John
 

Drtooth

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2002
Messages
31,717
Reaction score
6,710
Though, to it's credit, Henson has been better at releasing its back catalog. We have the complete Fraggle Rock on DVD, and a whole bunch of specials we thought we'd never see, while Disney has yet to really bring anything out... though it's still in question if TMS seasons were halted do to renegotiating rights that were supposedly hammered out years ago. Though that doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't release a collection of TV specials in a box set. However, in the case of Henson, the Lionsgate deal hasn't given us anything for months since Henson's Place. And quite frankly, Henson's best chance at money making IS said old specials. Though, they're clearly trying harder to reach an audience with Fraggle Rock merchandise... but other than the comics, they've been expensive and inaccessible.

Other than Muppet Monopoly, Muppet Yatzee (both been out since before Christmas) and some Key covers (which suck, trust me. You need flat head keys for it to work. I broke one trying to fit one of mine in) there's really nothing. I still think they should have let Boom keep the license at least for one more 4 part series and to publish the last 4 part Muppet Show arc. And again, a couple Kermit bean bags wouldn't exactly kill you.
 

CensoredAlso

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Messages
13,453
Reaction score
2,291
I'm gonna go with Heralde on this. I don't think that Disney was a definite Christian company but there were Christian themes in several movies. I sometimes think that people lose sense of what that really means. Alot of people out there think that if a Christian theme in a film, that must mean that they're preaching to us and we have to get rid of it. Or some people might think that they have to represent all religions in the movie if they're going to represent one. This is not true. Just becuase there is a certain religous theme in a movie, it does not mean that the company is blatantly supporting that faith. Disney does not definitely support Christianity but they can still put those themes into their movies (For example, Narnia.) So, Disney in no way tries to have a Christian Supremacist message into their films and that is not what Heralde or Starchamber is trying to say here.
Thank you, that's exactly what I meant. When you say a film has a specific religion's theme that doesn't mean you're saying its partial to one religion. It's simply a religion taking pride in itself and noting where it can be found in popular culture. It's not attempting to exclude others.

And it's also not to say Disney is a Christian company. There are many books, films and TV shows with religious or spiritual themes; it's good for drama and character development. That doesn't make every studio a religious studio. :wink:
 

BarbarianJ

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2005
Messages
90
Reaction score
0
It’s been a while I have posted anything in this forum. I love the Muppets but that doesn’t mean I feel compelled to talk about them every day as many of you seem to do ... :smile:
It must be age.

This topic is a good one, though, and I guess that Muppet Central is the best place on the world wide web to vent an opinion about something like this if you want to have hope of being listened to. Not just by your fellow fans, but also by the companies we talk about ...

I read through a few of the reactions in this thread -I admit, not all- and I feel like a few things are being confused. Allow me to explain what I mean.

I’m 37 years old ... a child of the seventies and eighties as many others here, I’m sure. If you were as lucky as me, your parents raised you in the proverbial “warm and loving nest” and you have fond memories of your childhood. That “warm nest feeling” has inevitably become associated with whatever I was busy with at the time. That explains to me why I remember the Muppets so fondly. It is not just about their comical genius, but the childhood memories and the nostalgia I have thinking back about them.

But today I’m 37 years old and nothing like the child anymore that I used to be. Okay, almost nothing like that child anymore ... :smile: ... At any rate, what I’m trying to say is that I cannot hold Disney alone responsible for the way the Muppets “changed” for me. Part of that is just due to me ... I have grown up; I look at them completely different than when I was a kid. All too often, you’ll find that the new stuff will not bring you that “childish excitement” anymore. But is that abnormal? I don’t think so. I hope not, really.

If I then consider things keeping the above in mind, I do think that Disney is still doing a great job. Put some 10-year olds before the telly and drop a Muppet DVD in the player and the only mayhem that will happen in the next two hours will happen on the screen. The kids will be just as enchanted as I was when I was ten watching the “Classic” Muppets.
And yes, also the Muppets have been slightly adapted to appeal to the kids of today, but as an adult I’m still able to enjoy all of that new stuff too, without being offended in my childhood memories. The changes are subtle and I do notice them, but they are not so drastic that they cause a complete break with the past.
Disney has managed to bridge the old and the new and that’s more of an accomplishment than many of us realise. Of course, I acknowledge Jim Henson as an exceptional creative genius, but the Muppets are still there today and we mostly have to thank the folks at Disney for that and none other.

Except for that, I guess there is then also the debate about Disney having become a big commercial, emotionless giant as a company. This again should not be confused with all of the above when “evaluating” the Muppets in today’s world.
Since I’m a European and Disney has organised itself into American and European divisions (which are managed very differently from each other), I’ll be the first to regret that Disney is no longer the cute, little family business that it used to be with the same message of funny entertainment to everybody. It’s a large company representing much dollars on an annual basis and a lot of people have interest that it’ll stay that way; big shots and little people alike. For the money, yes.
And while you can find it utterly despicable that the little family business is now a huge multinational that seems to put the money first, you have to remember that this same company still made the decision to release the classic shows on DVD, even if that was financially a risky adventure since it was not really known if the “old stuff” would also appeal to the “new kids”. If, as a company, you produce products that nobody buys, you will not be able to continue producing them for very long.
By the way, I guess that we’re still waiting for Season 4 on DVD because that adventure has been a bumpier financial ride than originally thought.
So while I can get quite upset about how decisions about something like child entertainment have become void of emotion and are instead steered by business models, I do also somehow recognise the necessity of that, just to have Disney and the Muppets survive in today’s entertainment business world.

So all things well considered I’m thankful that Disney is giving the Muppets a chance. And I hope that -financially- it can become a success for them without that they have to violate the “memory” I have of Jim Henson’s Muppets. It’s a precious balance and a difficult exercise and I hope they’ll do it well.
At any rate, I’ll be watching, keen to see if they pull it off. Keen to see if the orginal creative genius of Jim Henson can still mean something for the new generations of kids as well. If it works, all the better. If Disney will make loads of money with it at the same time, good for them and for us, because that means it will last for a little while longer.

What would be even more important is that a new generation of kids would be encouraged in their creativity and imagination. Because what our world maybe needs more than see the “old” Muppets rehashed is new imagination to be born. New creative ideas that start in a garage of a family home and can eventually bring undiluted fun and real values to kids.

Fingers crossed.
 

CensoredAlso

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Messages
13,453
Reaction score
2,291
I can agree that many Disney films past and present have themes that are inclusive to Christian values, but they were never beholden to them.
Right and that's definitely not what I've been saying. Bananasketch explained it very well, to say a film has a specific religion's themes does not imply it's partial to that religion. There have always been literary or pop culture stories with religious themes, it's a good storytelling device with ideas of drama, morality and redemption. That doesn't mean it's attempting to exclude anyone. :smile:

It's true that early Disney films were made in a very different world where inclusivness was not the norm. But we, the audience of today, are not from that world, we are from the modern world and we say a Disney film has Christian themes, that's all we are saying. We are not saying other religions are excluded.
 
Top