Sesame Workshop Trying To Have It Both Ways(Bert/Ernie issue)

[Drtooth]

Also, don't quote Levitical law (holiness codes written for a tribe who lived 2000 years ago that you don't belong to) to justify you beliefs. You either have to follow them all or none of them! You can't be a hypocrite and pick and choose which are acceptable for you. Shellfish, out. Pork, out, doing anything on sunday (originally saturday), out, touching a woman while she is having her menstrual cycle, out. Wearing blended fabrics, out!​

UGH I HATE Leviticus... No pork, no shellfish... How many of us are wearing pollycotton blends? I just don't get ANY of that. What does that prove? I'm sure I'd have to read up on that more... but SHELLFISH?!? If I were Jewish I'd refuse to keep Kosher. Pork, fine... get that crap out of here... but NO ONE messes with my fried shrimp.

Old methods of conduct shouldn't be what anyone strives for. There's a lot of common sense stuff (don't boink around when you're married, don't steal stuff), but some stuff needs to move on socially. Homosexuality, sin or not... finger wagging IS also a sin. I feel people are free to believe what they choose, but to get in the way of the lives and freedoms of others doesn't seem very Christian to me. And while there are a lot of good hearted people that just believe stuff like that, there are the menacing, malicious types that want to keep society down because they don't like certain things.

But none of this is important to the thread, nor the conversation that it ensues. While there is a founded religious discussion and debate for it, this is not the time nor the place for it, especially when the topic is about adult T-Shirts that are only slight, out of character gags.

There's an Elmo T-Shirt where he has a mustache and the caption says "This might tickle." Even though Elmo does tend to hit on women outside of the show, that's completely out of character otherwise.

 

[CensoredAlso]

But none of this is important to the thread, nor the conversation that it ensues. While there is a founded religious discussion and debate for it, this is not the time nor the place for it, especially when the topic is about adult T-Shirts that are only slight, out of character gags.

I have to disagree. If we can talk about why we think certain parts of the Bible are wrong, then other people can certainly argue why they think it's right. And they're both relevant to the discussion of Sesame Street's motivations behind their actions on this issues.

 

[Drtooth]

Yeah, but the issues Sesame has with this are they find the joke amusing enough to make T-Shirts referencing it. We've had threads like this before that ended in hurt feelings and flame wars about beliefs.

Sesame Street will not now, nor ever make issue of homosexual relationships. Celebs that are gay are welcomed on the show just as warmly as everyone else, and never asked about what they do. Sesame Street plays it too safe to actually want to introduce the concept. If they're considered a subversive evil left wing brainwashing factory for daring to make fun of a news channel that's widely known as biased, then what do you think will happen if they allow a gay couple on the show? We'd get hundreds of angry letters saying "I want to teach my child about that." (read: I want to reinstate the same backwards views that were pummeled into my head and keep the hate flame alive). Considering that SW had to make a parody puppet and get him on Fox News to say that Sesame Street does parodies and references pop culture shows how weak willed and ultra safe they have to be. If the show's on 10-20 years more in the future, I could see a reference to a kid with 2 dads... other than that, we're not ready for it.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Yeah, but the issues Sesame has with this are they find the joke amusing enough to make T-Shirts referencing it. We've had threads like this before that ended in hurt feelings and flame wars about beliefs.

Like was said before, no one has to read the posts they don't like. I really don't see why it becomes such a big deal.

Sesame Street will not now, nor ever make issue of homosexual relationships.

It may down the line, just not now. Star Trek tried having a woman in command in the '60s and it didn't get the support it needed. But they were able to do it years later with no problem.

 

[Drtooth]

Like was said before, no one has to read the posts they don't like. I really don't see why it becomes such a big deal.

It isn't so much that, but the tendency these threads have to lose the interesting conversation and then become personal attacks. This thread is all about silliness, and we don't want it to go down the wrong road. We have another thread discussing the rumors about Ernie and Bert, this is the thread for wondering why they make T-shirts out of it.

It may down the line, just not now. Star Trek tried having a woman in command in the '60s and it didn't get the support it needed. But they were able to do it years later with no problem.

How many decades was that? And it isn't a kid's TV show. Children's programing is under intense scrutiny from every side imaginable. From anti-violence crusaders, to family values foundations, to lazy parental groups that don't want to raise their kids. If a 2 year old pop culture joke sets people off, integrating gay parents would throw them into a tailspin... and no doubt a bunch of conservatives lobbying against PBS taking a haypenny per tax payer would use that to further their agenda. I can see the "Look! They're trying to brainwash kids to be accepting! That's bad somehow!" campaigns now. I don't see them doing this for quite some time.

 

[CensoredAlso]

It isn't so much that, but the tendency these threads have to lose the interesting conversation and then become personal attacks. This thread is all about silliness, and we don't want it to go down the wrong road. We have another thread discussing the rumors about Ernie and Bert, this is the thread for wondering why they make T-shirts out of it.

I just feel like if the discussion was about why the Bible was wrong, we wouldn't be hearing about how it's "off topic."

How many decades was that?

Exactly, these things never happen over night. It's really not surprising to me that it hasn't happened yet.

Children's programing is under intense scrutiny from every side imaginable.

That is very true. But there have always been kids shows who managed to break the mold. It's not impossible and it can happen. It just may not happen when we want it to.

 

[fragglerockr]

Heralde,

I agree with Drtooth and D'Snowth's point of views. I think that a person's particular belief about religion does not have a point in this conversation and that GonzoLeaper (is sometimes) pushing his views on everyone and stating them as facts. I am not attacking anyone. Heralde you seem to think this topic is in bounds so my continued thoughts.

For example: When you say I believe "yadda, yadda, yadda", is one thing. That is an OPINION. I support someone's right to that opinion.

When you state something as fact such as Gonzoleaper said:

"I doubt homosexuality would be presented on the show as something that some people choose to indulge in, though Christians and Muslims and other religions alike condemn it as being wrong".

This is a slippery slope here. Nowhere in that statement was it stated that it was an opinion. He later back-peddled and said it was his opinion but not before. Open-mouth insert foot much? Again I say no scientific evidence to prove that homosexuality is an "indulgence". Though same sex pairings have been observed in 1500 different species of animals, including humans. That is a fact, not an opinion.

"I'd still rather not have openly gay people on Sesame Street for the reason that it presents the message to children that this sin is an acceptable choice."

Again, stated as fact. There is no empirical evidence that it is, in fact, a sin. That is a religious conviction on his part. Just because a book says it's so, again does not make it fact! It's his personal beliefs.

Some people believe the Bible is work of fiction. So saying "my book says it's wrong", is about as useful as saying, "Star Wars is real", because I choose to believe the novelization of "The Empire Strikes Back" is reality. I'm personally not arguing if the Bible is right or wrong. If he wants to present these as his opinion then he needs to preface it that way and stop thinly veiling it as fact. That is my point!

FR

 

[CensoredAlso]

Yeah, he thinks what he's saying is fact. Do I think it is? No. But I didn't say he should be censored. I just engaged him in debate, questioned his point of view and life went on. Nor did I say you should be censored.

And again I have to say, if the post had been about how wrong the Bible was, no one would be complaining.

 

[fragglerockr]

Yeah, he thinks what he's saying is fact.

Ok, then so by your logic we can say and do anything we want as long as we personally believe it's fact? That's not dangerous at all.

Not once was the Bible even mentioned in the original topic. So, to argue is it right or wrong is futile. Listen, no one made this a religious discussion but GonzoLeaper. Of course, you keep egging it on when several of us have tried to steer it back to topic.

I suggest you two start your own thread about religion and religious convictions. You can discuss it till your hearts content, but let us continue talking about Sesame Workshop's merchandising practices and their subtle wink and nods to fans.

FR

Edit: And for point of reference, I NEVER said he should be censored. I merely indicated that he should make a distinction between his beliefs and what is factual.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Ok, then so by your logic we can say and do anything we want as long as we personally believe it's fact? That's not dangerous at all.

My logic is this is America, we're supposed to be against censorship. So what if he stated it as fact? He's wrong. Engage him in debate, don't just say he can't say how he feels.

let us continue talking about Sesame Workshop's merchandising practices and their subtle wink and nods to fans.

We were also clearly discussing the show's decision not to address the topic and their reasons for it. In no way was it off topic.

I suggest you two start your own thread about religion and religious convictions.

I have no interest in doing that. I just don't like a member being told not to say how he feels when clearly others would be allowed if their opinion was different.

But I'm moving on, because opinions are just that, opinions. And they can't hurt me.