Questions About The Toy Industry

[Drtooth]

I wasnt allowed to watch GI Joe because my parents believed it to be pro war propaganda. Which I heavily agree with, but some of the animation reminds me of the quasi anime style of G1 transformers. I LOVVVVED Sigma Six(I have the dvds), and I liked the GI Joe Resolute anime film.
Gi Joe Renegades in my opinion is amazing, finally saw the show. Great animation, flow, style. I think you'd like it.
Heres the first episodes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-92mxxBh4U
Reminds me of that Peter Chung/Men In Black/Fantastic Four style

I'd say the same reason with me, but then again, I actually watched it a couple times and never could get into it. I loved Thundercats, though... Transformers I watched time to time, but I forget to what extent. The first one of those shows I REALLY remember getting into was TMNT. I did watch a lot of old syndicated packages of old cartoons, that's for sure.

Yeah, GI Joe and Transformers were both animated by Toei animation, and they also did the first 5 episode test run of the 80's Turtles and the first 3 seasons of Muppet Babies.... though, I preferred what TMS did with Inspector Gadget and Ducktales. It had a more fluid movement.

Wow, sounds like you really followed the whole of the TMNT2003 series. 2003 and 2007 were my fave turtle periods in recent time. 2003 for the amazing Dreamwave comic, the gba game and the first season. And 2007 for the movie, which I feel is the second best film right under the first one.

I'll tell you this much... if you can find the DVD set of "Season 4" which is like the second half of it, that's all you need to see that you haven't seen. Insane in the Membrane blew my mind, and it's just so deep and amazing. Too bad the new network censor was such a (I can't say the word) that they had to ban the thing from ever being on TV. And people wonder why Fast Forward and BTTS were so dumbed down.

And YES! I find the 2k7 movie to be the best one since the first. The cartoon's popularity ruined a perfectly good second move, with that Shredder's revenge plot, Vanilla Ice, and NO Casey Jones... the Turtles don't ALWAYS need to fight Shredder... Baxter Stockman should have been in a movie.

If the Nick show is cgi and can be akin to the quality of cgi in the 2007 film, Im all for it! Though Id also love the animation seen on GI Joe Renegades.

I think I saw the words "Jimmy Neutron" and said, screw this. It was about a year and a half ago when I read it. I LIKE Jimmy Neutron, but I DO NOT want TMNT to look like that. And I certainly don't want a crummy rehash of the 1980's series, especially if they're going to Brady Bunch the entire thing and make fun of everything. TMNT Forever did that already.

Sigh.. I wish that somehow Nick found the proposal for Ultimate TMNT that they were trying to pitch to 4Kids.... that would get my interest. Ultimate TMNT was to be the tone of 2K3 with the setting and themes of the 80's series and very similar to what Archie comics TMNT were. They'd have all the characters like Wingnut and Screwloose and stuff like that, but it would have ROCKED. I ALWAYS hated how the 80's-90's series did to Wingnut and Screwloose, but adored the sad backstory from the Archie series. Plus, we'd have those wacky looking mutants keeping the toy line up, without the over kill of Half Court or Docter El.

 

[beaker]

A lot of fans felt(from reading reviews/message forums), it seemed, that the Turtles Forever movie was a big middle finger to the 80's TMNT(or "turtles88") And indeed, it did feel like while they went out of their way to painstakingly recreate the look of the animation and painted buildings, they made the 1988 Turtle characters/shredder/etc seem over the top bad. Ha, I vaguely remember Wingnut and Screwloose.

What do you think of Young Justice? Im a pseudo fan of the pg-13 dtv dc animated films, so it has that look.

Btw, I found a picture of all the darkwing figures...and it struck me how amazing Muppet figures in this scale/style would be:
http://i53.tinypic.com/2m5cp5g.png

Is there any new cartoon series youre excited about?

All I can say is that Im super excited about Toy Fair coverage. Already we have Jazwares "classic sonic" line which looks incredible.

 

[Drtooth]

A lot of fans felt(from reading reviews/message forums), it seemed, that the Turtles Forever movie was a big middle finger to the 80's TMNT(or "turtles88") And indeed, it did feel like while they went out of their way to painstakingly recreate the look of the animation and painted buildings, they made the 1988 Turtle characters/shredder/etc seem over the top bad. Ha, I vaguely remember Wingnut and Screwloose.

Well those fans are unhappy people hopelessly stuck in a world where the only Turtles are from the 1980's, and they didn't even pick up the subtle message that even the hard core 2k3 Turtles were wussies compared to the comics. Though when they started crying and hugging 2k3 Raph, I will agree that was a bit too far. And the 80's Raph voice actor was, sadly, closer sounding to Rob Paulsen than the 2 guys they got to fill in and replace him over the course of the series. Plus, frankly, the whole 25th anniversary was a disappointment... NECA welshed on half the toys, as did Playmates... and whatever we were looking forward to was canceled because Peter sold them to Nick. Honestly, I think that was a nice special and all, but I HATE that it didn't get a DVD release until Nick gave us a "oh well its something" broadcast cut no special features single disk. Freakin' Funimation and 4Kids DVD distribution agreement.

Seriously, 4Kids needs another distributor. I WANT to see Ultimate Muscle, even dubbed and cut, in collector's edition DVD sets.

As for Wingnut and Screwloose...
Archie Comic: Angry, psychotic duo out for revenge on Krang for destroying their homeworld, accidentally transported through time and space that later become allies to the Turtles in a big epic several part battle.
90's series: Aliens brainwashing people to take over the world.

Seriously, I love the 80's series and all, but those random episodes about random wacky aliens and Shredder trying to steal their technology? Not really a lot of love for those.... If nothing else, the new series at LEAST had Casey Jones, a superior Baxter Stockman, and Usagi Yojimbo. I swear.. if Nick screws up any ties between them and Stan Sakai....

I really wish I got the entire run of Darkwing figures... as it stands I got half of them... and I'll forever hate Playmates for NOT giving us series 2 with Gizmoduck. I could care less about the others, but Gizmoduck? Luckily I got that cereal PVC that I overpaid for at a comic book shop. I'd love to track down some DW figures in good condition with the weapons in tact... I always lost those things.

 

[beaker]

Well those fans are unhappy people hopelessly stuck in a world where the only Turtles are from the 1980's, and they didn't even pick up the subtle message that even the hard core 2k3 Turtles were wussies compared to the comics. Though when they started crying and hugging 2k3 Raph, I will agree that was a bit too far. And the 80's Raph voice actor was, sadly, closer sounding to Rob Paulsen than the 2 guys they got to fill in and replace him over the course of the series. Plus, frankly, the whole 25th anniversary was a disappointment... NECA welshed on half the toys, as did Playmates... and whatever we were looking forward to was canceled because Peter sold them to Nick. Honestly, I think that was a nice special and all, but I HATE that it didn't get a DVD release until Nick gave us a "oh well its something" broadcast cut no special features single disk. Freakin' Funimation and 4Kids DVD distribution agreement.

Seriously, 4Kids needs another distributor. I WANT to see Ultimate Muscle, even dubbed and cut, in collector's edition DVD sets.

As for Wingnut and Screwloose...
Archie Comic: Angry, psychotic duo out for revenge on Krang for destroying their homeworld, accidentally transported through time and space that later become allies to the Turtles in a big epic several part battle.
90's series: Aliens brainwashing people to take over the world.

Seriously, I love the 80's series and all, but those random episodes about random wacky aliens and Shredder trying to steal their technology? Not really a lot of love for those.... If nothing else, the new series at LEAST had Casey Jones, a superior Baxter Stockman, and Usagi Yojimbo. I swear.. if Nick screws up any ties between them and Stan Sakai....

I really wish I got the entire run of Darkwing figures... as it stands I got half of them... and I'll forever hate Playmates for NOT giving us series 2 with Gizmoduck. I could care less about the others, but Gizmoduck? Luckily I got that cereal PVC that I overpaid for at a comic book shop. I'd love to track down some DW figures in good condition with the weapons in tact... I always lost those things.

The early-mid 90's was such a wonderful, wonderful time for figures. The 80's was all about puny 3 3/4" figures...the late 90's through most of 2000's was big grostesque Mcfarlane figures.

But 1990-1996=pure bliss. Toy Biz(noone can tell me the 92-96 era Marvel figures werent amazing), Tyco, Remco and of course Playmaters and Kenner(Aliens figures rock!) Those Darkwing Duck figures, the 1990 Kenner Simpsons figures, the 1994 Remco Swatkats figures, etc. Just amazing. I wish so bad one of these companies made Sonic SatAM/Adv figures. Oh and how did I forget the glorious The Tick figures?

Anyways, Im sure if you keep checking, youll find all the Darkwing figures on ebay. My patience has paid off for completing various collections.

Oh wow, I think I remember the Archie Wingnut...I recall this april 1990 Archie comic I got. I had just watched the TMNT film, and then bought the comic...tho was a little disappointed with the super goofyness of the comic. Course, now I can appreciate it more(Ive become a massive Archie Sonic fan)

Regarding the whole 25th Annv thing...like the WWE royally messing up the 2002 WWF vs WCW vs NWO vs ECW storyline(ha, yeah I used to be into that stuff way back when), or other long expected crossovers in comics/games/tv/film...sadly everyone MASSIVELY dropped the ball in 2009. There just wasnt much awareness made for what was suppose to be a big celebration.
Then again I was sad when there wasnt a Muppets 50 year anniversary.

Regarding the movie, I agree with fans who feel the people who made it simply wanted to wrap up/end the entire 1984-2009
TMNT franchise once and for all. Like a "eh, we give up...here ya go, one last hurrah to tidy it all up". Maybe Nick will do a decent cgi cartoon, maybe it'll be a dud. At this point, it's hard for me to care.

 

[CensoredAlso]

A lot of fans felt(from reading reviews/message forums), it seemed, that the Turtles Forever movie was a big middle finger to the 80's TMNT(or "turtles88")

I have to admit I'm one of those fans, lol. I really felt they went a little too far making the '80s Turtles look silly. On the other hand, they at least felt like they could be teenagers. The 2003 Turtles just ended seeming like scolding adults and I quickly got tired of watching them too, lol.

If I'm hopelessly stuck in the '80s, that's fine with me.

 

[Drtooth]

Oh wow, I think I remember the Archie Wingnut...I recall this april 1990 Archie comic I got. I had just watched the TMNT film, and then bought the comic...tho was a little disappointed with the super goofyness of the comic. Course, now I can appreciate it more(Ive become a massive Archie Sonic fan)

The Archie comic got VERY deep the further along the series went on. The sad thing is, it was supposed to culminate with this big long, super epic that was never finished... and that was one of the many things we were promised, but NEVER GOT from the 25th anniversary. Seriously, I wanna track down a cheap 2k3 figure, see if I can remove the mask, and replace it with sculpy or regular eyes or something and paint the entire thing black, like the black bodysuit he wore in those comics. Generally speaking, the TMNT fanbase finds common ground in LOVING the Archie series. EVEN with the ecopreachiness.

Regarding the movie, I agree with fans who feel the people who made it simply wanted to wrap up/end the entire 1984-2009
TMNT franchise once and for all. Like a "eh, we give up...here ya go, one last hurrah to tidy it all up". Maybe Nick will do a decent cgi cartoon, maybe it'll be a dud. At this point, it's hard for me to care.

It was an unfortunate wrap up in this sense... the 5th season of the show was "lost" by the toy company's wishes because they screwed up the line with too many idiotic Turtle variants they PROMISED they wouldn't do, and gave us Fast Forward. Now here's the rub: Fast Forward had a childish tone, and I SWEAR it's because of the new Fox censors at the time getting antsy at episodes like "Insane in the Membrane" (finished but never aired) and "Nightmares Recycled" (Never completed). Clearly out of fear they'd deal with getting rid of deep violent episodes, we had kiddy friendly junk. And sadly, that was the BEST ratings the show ever got. Now, even though this series was even more popular, the toy company shut it down because they weren't selling "enough" of them. A second, almost darker and better written season of Fast Forward was planned, and pulled before production. by then the movie came out, and they made movie figures that were NOT the same size and scale as the others... HUGE mistake.

Now, when Secret of the Ooze and that third one came out, they made movie figures, but they were in the same scale and size and price range of the regular line. That way, they could just continue making regular figures after the movie line ended. NOW they focused too much on the movie line, and every TMNT figure since had to have some lame variant helmet glued to their heads... higher price point, the plans of a sequel fell through... they started selling poorly, and they couldn't go back to the cheaper, smaller scale. Meantime, they needed a series to prematurely end Fast Forward and get a new series started... and 4Kids had a role in this one... they wanted something that had an online card game angle (which the show eventually didn't have, but there was Chaotix also to be made). So three different concepts came out.

Concept one: The turtles had to rescue Splinter from cyberspace, BUT they also had to team up with cutesy annoying baby versions of themselves for no apparent reason.

Concept two: Somehow, they were in an alternate Superhero world... I can't recall it in grave detail.

Concept three: This one was good. Ultimate TMNT that blended the original series, the Archie comics, and the new darker tone. Splinter was to have been Hamato Yoshi (ala the old cartoon) and characters like Wingnut and Screwloose and Mondo Gecko were going to appear in the series. Of course, this would have better worked as a Franchise relaunch years later... FF would have just ended making a new series that came out of thin air...

So they decided on taking elements of concept 1, and just making a transitional series "Back to the Sewers." Again, Transitional. Another series was to follow... but Playmates screwed up the toy line AGAIN, and everyone involved just decided to end the series. But, as the 25th anniversary was approaching, they were planning the "movie" anyway. So it wound up being a makeshift end to the series. The plan was to rerun them and revisit them in a few years, maybe then relaunch it a second time... but Viacom bought them out, and any plans they had, especially for the 25th just died then.

HOWEVER, 4Kids managed to keep TMNT going for about 5 years... 7 seasons. You can still even find some adult throwback merchandise... when they relaunched He-Man (I'm not a huge fan, but I know people who were bitterly disappointed), the series didn't last a year, the toys were out of production, and they only made expensive high detailed sculpts for online sales. Today, you can't even find a T-shirt. Consider this... TMNT could have just as easily been a week 1-2 year franchise cash grab, but 4Kids saw something special in it, and kept it going as long as the toy company wanted it to. Heck, 4Kids even ordered a second season of Ultimate Muscle. That was a huge flop as an anime in Japan (comic's still running), but we got closure on the series thanks to the ratings of the show in the US. Unfortunately, the toys didn't catch on.

 

[beaker]

I have to admit I'm one of those fans, lol. I really felt they went a little too far making the '80s Turtles look silly. On the other hand, they at least felt like they could be teenagers. The 2003 Turtles just ended seeming like scolding adults and I quickly got tired of watching them too, lol.

If I'm hopelessly stuck in the '80s, that's fine with me.

Oh I'm all about the late 80's. Not a day goes by where I don't wish it was 1988. (or 1987-early 1990) Be it late 80's Muppets, video games, sitcoms, movies, etc I am forever in awe of that magical time period. And oh do I have some very very fond memories of the Turtles from that time.

However, as much as I didnt keep up with the 2003 storylines much, and stopped watching after the first season...I do have a fondness for the 03-07 period, especially regarding the 2007 movie. I do see what you mean tho, all the fun was zapped out of the turtles...it became all about being serious and dark. That worked well for the 90's Batman toons, but there was something fun about the original 1988 series.

I like both series, but I agree that it seemed like they wanted to sabotage more than homage the legacy of the 80's/90's Turtles.

 

[beaker]

They canceled TMNT 2k3 episodes for being "too violent"?
Geez, in one of the season 1 episodes Shredder gets beheaded, and earlier in the season Shredder kills his own henchmen. He even beheads Baxter Stockman. I mean by season 2, TMNT had broken all taboos...a far cry from "Teenage Mutant Ninja Heroes"(man, what is wrong with the British? Contra=Probotectors, Ninja Gaiden=Shadow Warriors, etc) or the original early 90's non violent change away from weapons.

I loved the designs of Fast Forward. LOVED them. Loved the look of the toys and the packaging. Hated the actual show, and couldnt get into Back to the Sewer. 2K3 turtles with pupils? No thanks.

Yeah Im surprised the show lasted so long, I stopped following by season 2(hence why I was shocked that Shredder is really an Utrom in a suit)

Also your explanation of what went wrong in the final years makes sense. I notice toy based figures usually don't sell well and are rather ugly. Not just Terminator Suckvation, but
A team, Percy Jackson, Planet 51 and countless other bargain bin toys. Putting all their eggs in the poor performing 2007 movie figures was very lame. But 2007 is pretty much when the TMNT ended. Again, I was more than satisfied with the film and thought it was simply visionary. Im fine with the TMNT being put to rest in a way, just given how much rich history is left. I WOULD love to see more 2d side scroller games made tho!

I just really dislike the look of the 2007 Imagi TMNT turtles outside of the film. In the film I love it, but in figure form or in video game form(the TMNT Smash bros game or the movie based game) it looks just muddy and craptacular.

 

[Drtooth]

They canceled TMNT 2k3 episodes for being "too violent"?
Geez, in one of the season 1 episodes Shredder gets beheaded, and earlier in the season Shredder kills his own henchmen. He even beheads Baxter Stockman. I mean by season 2, TMNT had broken all taboos...a far cry from "Teenage Mutant Ninja Heroes"(man, what is wrong with the British? Contra=Probotectors, Ninja Gaiden=Shadow Warriors, etc) or the original early 90's non violent change away from weapons.

Well, they weren't so much canceled as a new Fox censor came in and was a complete wuss compared to the other one. So one episode (Insane in the membrane) was completed, but never aired in the US and one (Nightmares recycled) was never completed. And it also explained the kid friendly tone of the last 2 seasons. Again, season 5 (The Ninja Tribunal, which would have been a more fitting end for the series) was held hostage because it was a couple years before the movie, and they ruined the toy line with Super Sports Turtles and ones that either made no sense or weren't show accurate.

I loved the designs of Fast Forward. LOVED them. Loved the look of the toys and the packaging. Hated the actual show, and couldnt get into Back to the Sewer. 2K3 turtles with pupils? No thanks.

Yeah Im surprised the show lasted so long, I stopped following by season 2(hence why I was shocked that Shredder is really an Utrom in a suit)

Fast Forward was on a track to becoming a GOOD show, and had some decent episodes. The second half of that series was actually WATCHABLE! At least, for the most part. And again, they had bigger, deeper, and darker plans for the unproduced second season of FF. But really, those toys were the best ones.

Also your explanation of what went wrong in the final years makes sense. I notice toy based figures usually don't sell well and are rather ugly. Not just Terminator Suckvation, but
A team, Percy Jackson, Planet 51 and countless other bargain bin toys. Putting all their eggs in the poor performing 2007 movie figures was very lame. But 2007 is pretty much when the TMNT ended. Again, I was more than satisfied with the film and thought it was simply visionary. Im fine with the TMNT being put to rest in a way, just given how much rich history is left. I WOULD love to see more 2d side scroller games made tho!
[/QUOTE

The problem was the first line of movie specific toys actually did pretty good. They were barely on store shelves up until a month after the movie was out. It was the idiotic variants (really, again?) that killed them. I managed getting the basic turtles (though I refused nothing less than Spirit of the Jungle Leo), Splinter and Shredder all really cheap, but I really wanted to get Casey, Karai, and maybe April. I can't even remember what cockamamie varients they had now... something about aliens and monsters? Anyway, that's why in BTTS the turtles had pupils... so they could still get away with selling movie toys. There was an unproduced series of figures that WAS the Turtles in their Tron copycat forms and a Cyber Shredder, but they never were released. Then Playmates, in their infinite wisdom, dropped the license for Terminator Salvation. To this day, I still see stores barely managing to get rid of them.

I have to admit I'm one of those fans, lol. I really felt they went a little too far making the '80s Turtles look silly. On the other hand, they at least felt like they could be teenagers. The 2003 Turtles just ended seeming like scolding adults and I quickly got tired of watching them too, lol.

What bugs me, if they did the same exact thing on Robot Chicken or Family Guy or lowest of the low Collegehumor dot com, everyone would think it's brilliant.

Personally, I still wish they made a dark, gritty, comic book based movie. The final 10 minutes of the movie, where they're in Turtle Prime (the comic)... the entire movie should have been like that.

HOWEVER, there were some jokes about the 80's series that needed to be made. Raph talking into the camera for example... and the fact that 2k3 Donatello's technical prowes is more scientific than the 80's version... but over all, I got the feeling that the 80's Turtles were actually more effective than the 2k3 ones in that film. And had you watched to the end, the comic turtles were even more hard core than the 2k3 ones.

The middle finger to me was the fact that half the stuff we were going to get for the 25th didn't happen. Heck, we almost didn't even get the movie, even though it was completed at that point.

 

[CensoredAlso]

HOWEVER, there were some jokes about the 80's series that needed to be made. Raph talking into the camera for example... and the fact that 2k3 Donatello's technical prowes is more scientific than the 80's version... but over all, I got the feeling that the 80's Turtles were actually more effective than the 2k3 ones in that film. And had you watched to the end, the comic turtles were even more hard core than the 2k3 ones.

Oh yeah the best parts for me were jokes about Raphael's fourth wall moments, lol. And how '80s Donatello's quirky inventions actually saves the day at one point.

I did watch to the end and yeah I liked how even the 2k3 Turtles were stunned by the comic Turtles, lol. But I guess I was still smarting over the '80s Turtles running away in fear. That was just unexceptable!