Jim Henson on Ethics

[Melonpool]

My wife found this today. Interesting read for people such as ourselves...

 

[TheCreatureWork]

Great find!! Where did she find this?

 

[Melonpool]

I have no idea. I'll ask!

 

[D'Snowth]

See, that's what I often worry about with not just my work, but the work of others here as well, are we really, REALLY, doing our own thing, or ARE we basically ripping off the Muppets

When people who aren't quite as hardcore into the art of puppetry as we are look at the things we do with our own work see our own individual style and such, or do they see "like the Muppets"?

I've kind of been on the receiving end on that, but then again, people who know me and know my work know by now that yes, Steve D'Monster's overall design, albeit some minor changes and modifications, was "borrowed" from one of the Frazzletones, even when I did a demonstration of him for former Muppeteer Ed May, one of the things he mentioned about Steve was that he looked like a monster from Sesame Street (though luckily aside from that, he felt what I could do with a puppet required no critique, he was thoroughly impressed with my lip-syncing, head movements, arm movements, etc, as were the other puppeteers he was working with). Steve aside (and maybe Bethany since she is is counterpart in more ways than one), anytime I design a puppet, I do try to avoid making them look like Muppet characters, and I THINK I do a decent job, and usually, it's in tiny details: my puppets tend to have colored eye pupils, as opposed to traditional black; likewise, my puppets have black mouths with pinkish throats and purple tongues (well, so did my cartoon characters) instead of red mouths, black throats, and pink tongues... again, it comes down to people who know you and are in the same "network" as yourself: people and friends closest to me say they can tell a difference in the way my puppets look, they feel my character look more like something I would indeed conceive as opposed to a Muppet, but would less puppet savvy people think the same, or would they see Muppet knock offs?

Like with Jim, I too drew inspiration from top dawgs in the world of puppetry including himself, Shari Lewis, and Sid & Marty Krofft; where Jim mentioned his specifics in drawing inspiration, naturally, from him and the Muppets is where I drew inspiration for the overall style of puppetry, because again, it was watching the Muppeteers doing what they did best that made me want to become a puppeteer; from Shari Lewis I drew inspiration for giving characters funy, quirky, and distinct personalities while still maintaining levels of child-like innocence and wonder; and from the Krofft brothers I drew inspiration from the writing of their shows where it was almost like sitcoms aimed at both adults and kids.

That's really the only "defense" I can give in favor of myself... Ican't say I'm trying to be like any of the people I admire and get inspiration from, because I really am not... I do know some pople at there DO actually TRY to be like say Jim, whether they want to admit it or not, but again, I'm not, because people like Jim perfected the art of puppetry and shaped it into what it is today, which issomething I simply cannot do myself, and wouldn't even begin to try to do, but I DO want to help keep that kind of puppetry alive in my own way. I do admit, some people HAVE compared me to Jim, but I feel that it's completely un-necessary and unfair, because again, I could never measure up to Jim, and I wouldn't even want to try; I admire him far too much to even try to accomplish what he has... thatd be like if I was an animator and people compared me to Disney, there's just no comparison.

 

[Melonpool]

I try ot make the eyes and body proportions different from the Muppets when I design -- but even then, people tell me that one of my characters looks like Beaker. So much, that it became a running gag in my comics.

For the record, here's the puppet in question:

vs.

 

[D'Snowth]

I don't see that, as a matter of fact, I always felt that yours was one of the more unique and distinctive styles amongst our roster of puppeteers here at MC.

Then again, similarities like that happen all the time in the media whtether it's intentional or not, especially in animation like Jeanette Miller Vs. Irma Langenstein, and even Joe Murray said Rocko was originally supposed to be yellow, but he was forced to change his color because Nickelodeon execs felt he looked to similar to another alread-existing yellow character, and to this day, I STILL haven't see said yellow character in question.

 

[Melonpool]

It's probably Grimm from Mother Goose and Grimm. Or maybe Odie?

I know Odie originally had black ears, but during the week he looked a little too much like Snoopy so Jim Davis was forced by the syndicate to change them to brown (or white in the dailies).

Thanks for the comments on my designs. I think I benefit from trying to match drawings with my puppets rather than trying to make a puppet from scratch. I also like really big eyes.

 

[Buck-Beaver]

That's a great find Steve! Did you get to ask your wife where it's from?

To answer D'Snowth's question, while I think the term "ripping off" is very strong, if we're honest with ourselves, almost all of the puppets here are extremely derivative of the Muppets. There is very little that I've seen here in the forum over the years that doesn't fall in to that category. If you're doing foam and fleece puppets with wide mouths that are hand-and-rod or "live hands" chances are you're riffing on the Muppets and your work is derivative (and I include a lot of my own work in that statement).

Does derivative = bad or not creative? No, of course not! For example, I think a lot of the puppets you see made from Project Puppet patterns are really creative, but that doesn't mean most of them aren't more or less derivative of the Muppets' style at the same time.

What really struck me about that article was that Jim freely admitted he borrowed techniques from people like Bil Baird, Shari Lewis, Sergi Obraztsov, etc. but he also stressed that he didn't make puppets that looked like theirs, or attempt to copy their style.

So how do we get away from this? I'm not entirely sure, but the easiest place to start is to just stop building basic Muppet-like puppets with fleece (heresy, I know!). Just using a different material can change the look of a puppet. Look at Norman Schneider's work. There's obviously a strong Muppet influence at work, but in terms of style most of his puppets are much further away from the Muppets than most builders. Compared to, say, Jarrod Boutcher who makes great looking puppets in a style that's almost indistinguishable from the Muppets.

(just to be clear I am not knocking Jarrod or his work; he's an insanely talented guy, but there's no way that someone doesn't look at it and think "that looks like a Muppet")

I've been really heavily influenced by the Muppets and I've been as guilty of this as anyone. One of the best things I've done in recent years is collaborate with puppet builders who not only don't work in a style similar to the Muppets, but are actually actually hostile to it. It's difficult at first, but doing that forced me to start thinking about different materials and different ways of doing things.

At Unraku a really nice character called Puppet What What that I love was developed by a puppeteer and builder named Robin Polfuss. There is definately a Muppet influence (she's a hand and rod character with a wide mouth), but I don't think she looks like a Muppet and that's largely due to the fact that she's not made from fleece.

One thing I do know is that it's really, really hard to do something that's either totally or mostly original. That's why Jim Henson was a genius.

 

[D'Snowth]

One thing I do know is that it's really, really hard to do something that's either totally or mostly original. That's why Jim Henson was a genius.

That was all very well said.

Going slightly off-topic again when the subjectof cartooning was mentioned and such, I find myself in a somewhat similar predicament; when I first started doing little cartoons and comics and such, I derived a LOT of inspiration from different animators' styles, most specifically like David Feiss and John Dilworth, but after a while, I finally really developed my own individual style, but even that has gotten some comparisons, where some people feel my style looks similar to, say, King of the Hill (like the Beaker comparison)... I guess I can kind of see where some people would think that, but personally, I really don't see that much of a comparison.

 

[Melonpool]

I asked my wife about how she found it and she said she was reading through a bunch of quotes while looking for something else and found a link to it. She sends me all kinds of great puppet finds, but she doesn't know where it originally came from.

I think that using the same materials is fine -- it's finding new ways to use them that's the key. I mean, Michelangelo didn't have a trademark on marble -- it's just the way that he used it that people remember -- and I'm sure people don't look at every statue they see and instantly think it's Michelangelo's work.

There is definitely a design aesthetic that goes into Muppets -- the "magic triangle" is more than just the way you place eyes on a puppet -- it goes a long way to making the "Muppet" look. Likewise, if you use the "spoon"-shaped plastic eyes like are fond on Grover and Ernie, there's a good chance people will think it's a Muppet.

I don't think there's any way the vast majority of the population will get past comparing our work to Henson's. I'm sure people see Team America and say "Muppets!" just because Muppets have such a long history with the general population and they equate any puppet with Muppets.

On a sidenote, for awhile I did escape being labeled as a Muppet. People would stop me at conventions and ask if my puppets were part of "Crank Yankers." It's just what's on people's minds at the time, I guess.