Jim Henson on Ethics

[Melonpool]

I derived a LOT of inspiration from different animators' styles, most specifically like David Feiss and John Dilworth, but after a while...

I'll have to forward this on to Dave. He's my neighbor.

 

[D'Snowth]

I still don't understand why over the years, there's been a number of shows that utilizes puppetry in the exact same style as the Muppets, and all of them actually have former and/or future Muppet people working on them, yet only one of them resulted in a lawsuit for plagerism,w hich was Wimzie's House, but if you ask me, Wimzie's House was more original than some of these other shows, like The Great Space Coaster which seems like TMS only in space, or Between the Lions, which is similar to SST ut focuses only on reading and phonics ad such.

The more I think about it, I think the best attempt to create a Muppet-inspired style of puppetry in a more original manner was the TV series of The Letter People... granted, the puppet construction was very shoddy and cookie-cutter, but the designs of the puppets and everything were very creative and really didn't look much like the Muppets at all.

That or maybe shows like Spitting Image or D.C. Follies, where the puppets are caricatures of real people.

 

[Animal31]

I still don't understand why over the years, there's been a number of shows that utilizes puppetry in the exact same style as the Muppets

Henson used just about every style of puppetry at one time or another, to say this like saying any puppet you use your hand to operate is copyright infringement...

Wimzie's House was more original than some of these other shows, like The Great Space Coaster which seems like TMS only in space, or Between the Lions, which is similar to SST ut focuses only on reading and phonics ad such.

I grew up when GSC was originally aired, I don't remember it being a variety show in space, but I do believe Kevin Clash may have been a puppeteer on that one? Between the Lions was an educational show, much like Sesame Street I suppose, but not all parents wanted Sesame Street to be their child's only educational program to watch. Variety is key...

That or maybe shows like Spitting Image or D.C. Follies, where the puppets are caricatures of real people.

Isn't this in itself a form of copyright infringement when your only characters are based on an actual person?

Whew, thanks!

 

[D'Snowth]

I'll have to forward this on to Dave. He's my neighbor.

Are you serious?! Wow, I had written to him like eleven years ago, never heard back, but yeah, I was always a big fan of his, as far as animation style goes, but as well as his wacky, offbeat, and pseudo-edgy humor in his cartoons; I loved Cow and Chicken as a kid, none of the other kids got it, but I didn't realize that at that time, I didn't get it either, it just entertained me, but once I got older, hoo-boy did I get it! XD
And Animal, I just want to take this time to rephrase myself since you sort of misrepresented one of my quote (I'm sure it was unintentional), I was saying out of all these shows that did utilize a Muppet-style of puppetry, why was Wimzie's House the only one that resulted in a plagerism lawsuit? But then again, there are conspiracy theories around here on MC that people felt Wimzie was a horrible show, and JHC sued because they didn't want people to associate them with it (even though again, people like Norman Stiles and Chris Cerf worked on it). And yes, Kevin was on GSC, as well as Kermit Love (he created the show), John Lovelady (he ended up leaving, like TMS), Noel MacNeal, and Pam Arciero.

As for Spitting Images and D.C. Follies, you make a point, but that would also be like saying shows like Saturday Night Live and MADtv are guilty of copyright infringment on the same grounds that all the characters are based on actual people... or even like these movies like Radio or My Dog Skip that are "based on true stories".

 

[Animal31]

I apologize for the confusion, my intention was not to misrepresent what you were saying, and was nothing to even do with Wimzie's House. I was actually trying to do the opposite by not editing your sentence...

And yes, you are correct in that I think MADtv and SNL would also fall under this same "rule", but I believe there are also legal guidelines where satire is concerned? Regardless, my point wasn't that they are not funny or clever, just that it seems to be "overlooked" when talking about anything else but making a puppet.

A puppet is a puppet, and with 50+ years after the Ed Sullivan Show, Sesame Street, and the Muppets, I'm not sure there is much that can be done that doesn't borrow from something else in terms of style or execution?

Thanks

 

[D'Snowth]

Another thing to I guess that would set me apart from Jim as a puppeteer is that, let's face, you pretty much have tobe a extraordinary puppeteer to be a Muppeteer.

Wheras with myself, it's actually quite a paradox in that, I don't necessarily need extraordinary puppeteers, what I look for is people who at least love puppetry enough, who maybe fololed around with it as a hobby at one point, who practiced enough, and has enough passion for it to possibly choose it as a career path or something... there are plenty of these kinds of people who, to me, actually are extraordinary puppeteers in their own way, as long as they actualy know what they're doing: some of the best lip-syncers I've seen have been kind of "shunned" by the big dogs of the puppet world, but to me, they are excellent. We have a lot of those kinds of puppeteers right here at MC; they show examples of their work on YouTube and such all the time, and prove themselves worthy of being wonderful career puppeteers... those are the kind of puppeteers I look at and look for and such... I really feel the likes of LinkiePie, Colbyfriends, Oscarfan, and others would make excellent additions to a puppeteering staff, as far as "amateur" puppeteers go, they're among the best I've seen out there.

 

[Gonzo's Hobbit]

I really liked the article (was kinda hard to read but I got it). It was something to think about. Thanks for posting it Melonpool

I agree with all of the comments that it's hard to get past the idea that the general public often sees a great deal of puppets as being "Muppets". I know I had a problem with that the first time I showed people Mitch. They kept calling him a muppet and it would freak me out because my intention wasn't to make a Muppet. Even tually though, I just got used to it. I'm also with the folks that say it's hard to find anything that isn't inspired or influenced by something else in some way. I know that we talked about stuff like that all the time in school. No matter what you do, someone can say it reminds them of something somwhere. That's why it's so crucial to make it your own as much as you can.

I feel like, in light off all this, until someone is blatanlty copying someone (like the Big Bird examples in the article) it's hard to say they are copying and frankly I don't know that I'd want to without knowing more about the creator's intentions

I know that at this point I'm just content with any kind of puppet design I can make. I've only made a few so far so far, and one is often compared to the Muppets, but that is because that's the style of the puppet i was able to find a pattern for My goal is that, the more I learn and the more I experiment, the more I can branch off of the typical muppet style of puppet and do my own designs. And quite frankly, that's gonna take a while.

In school, one of the things my script writing teacher taugh (and he was one of the greatest teachers I ever had) was that stories are character driven. I've kind of used this in doing puppetry. If I can't make totally original looking puppets, then at the very least I can make my own characters. While I may compare them to muppets from time to time, i.e. me and the guy that plays Cranny once described the banter between Mitch and Cranny being similar to that of Gonzo and Rizzo, I'm not trying to make Mitch be Gonzo. Mitch is his own character and that's what's fun about the whole thing.

 

[Poptarts]

This was the reply I received about this article. This conversation is in another forum as well.