Is Frozen overrated?

[Drtooth]

You're right. Retconning can be done well like in the case or Nick Fury. I had mixed feelings about Johnny Storm controversy, but the film was such a mess anyway that it doesn't really matter.

To me it didn't matter that Johnny was black or white. The fact is, the movie sucked, the reason the movie was made sucked and made no sense, the fact that Fox is still holding onto the rights even after losing all that money sucks. I do not mind a race lift or genderswap. Just make sure the project is actually good first.

It's a big world. We all deserve to see ourselves reflected in it. Entertainment is one of those ways. When folk hear about inclusion of a minority or an LGBT character, the first thought is that they're going to ramrod some overbearing character into a project when it's the opposite that's trying to be accomplished. Agents of SHIELD has beautifully introduced a secondary LGBT character a while ago and he kind of just passed under the radar. I love that. BTW, the show has gotten a lot better after that clumsy first season. Anyway, I think that Disney's inclusion of LGBT in Marvel and probably inclusion in Star Wars will be graceful and understated. I'm interested in seeing how that unfolds.

I really get the feeling that writers and directors really want to get more diversity than the studios will allow and audiences will spend the money to see. Say what you will about the Fast and Furious movies. There aren't 8 of them because they're all failures. And part of that is because they were able to have a diverse, believable cast. It's a real shame that those who complain that the Oscar's so White are the same film audiences that only see films with white people in it. Producers pass up actors of certain races because they want to go for the big names first. Look at the Emma Watson controversy with Aloha. Can anyone even name a Japanese American actress? Because I sure as heck can't. Another lovely catch 22.

That said, we did have some under the radar gay characters before like Richie from Static Shock (where it was never brought up) or the teacher from Hey Arnold (where it was only hinted at once) back when that was taboo. I'd say most of society is either supportive or doesn't give a crap enough to not say anything about it. But there's always that small vocal minority that ruins everything for everyone. They have way too much power, and it's for the best they're ignored to the point of complete irrelevance.

I have friends of all stripes. Mormons, Muslims, Trangender, Gay, Straight, Questioning, Catholics, Christians, Jews and otherwise. I have countless Conservative friends too. Most of them don't care about what LGBT people do and believe that equality is a two way street. That's a mature perspective. They're also horrified that a raging bigot has taken over their party.

Completely off topic, but I agree. There's a difference between saying "I don't care for this, but I'm not going to get involved" and "This is somehow affecting my life and I need to change the lives of those I'll never meet." Now, I can expand on the whole thing about how social conservatism is just a matter of "No True Scottsman" and that if the Republican party was more socially progressive that they'll lose their precious Evangelical voters.I get what you're saying about Trump, but frankly for me all he's doing is pointing out how the extremists took over the party since the 80's (and especially since Bush Jr.). Thing is, all the noise is surrounding him and we forget just how shockingly far right half of those who were running actually are. Ted Cruz is especially chilling. His religious supporters are downright everythingphobic. And I'm not even going to get into the Congressional stooges that keep redefining rape. I don't see why moderate Republicans and fiscal conservatives aren't just as angry if not angrier than the liberals at their party.

 

[MikaelaMuppet]

Yes. It is overrated.

 

[charlietheowl]

• Frozen already contains the subtext of a person finding self acceptance after being shunned and judged by her community and family. It's a beautiful message that's open to interpretation. It can fit anybody and that's great! No tinkering.
• There's nothing wrong with allowing characters to reflect the world around us as long as they're organically written rather than forcefully wedged into an already beloved franchise. I have no doubt it will eventually happen in a Disney film. Probably not this one.

Agree on both of these parts, which you make far more articulately than I could, lol. People can take the message of Frozen to heart no matter what they are trying to accept within themselves. I've seen people discuss how Elsa's story helped them come to terms with dealing with a disability or personal condition, viewing her story in that light (I'd post more details but I haven't seen this movie in two-plus years and have forgot large chunks of detail). A character's journey that can be adapted to people of all kinds doesn't need a label put on it that might close it off for another person.

However, I think that it would be wonderful for entertainment in general, not just children's entertainment, to have characters on the LGBT spectrum represented better. Non-stereotyped LGBT characters in television and movies, especially media that is accessible for all ages, would have a positive effect on LGBT youth. Sometimes it's easier for people to relate to a character than a real-life person. For a kid to see a hero in one of their cartoons that just happens to gay or lesbian, that could do huge things for their self-esteem.

 

[jvcarroll]

I value your opinion. Don't get me wrong. I respect your political standpoint, as well as I expect you to respect mine. For example, as I vote for Trump, you might want Bernie.
But, I don't really care about LGBT rights, and I don't think that's the right choice of words. Rights or No Rights, it has no effect on me. If I was to decide who had rights, I'd tell someone else to decide. I'm here to discuss non-political matters anyway, so I think we should all SHUT UP. Including me. We're not here to do this. I'm here to discuss The Muppets, and pretty much ANYTHING but politics and social issues. Seeing everyone else spread their opinions made me want to too, and we all shouldn't. A virtual toast to a non-Political Muppet Central, with whatever drink you want.

What? So now we aren't to talk about that after you've said what you wanted to? Wow. I know the rules around here because I helped to write them and no one needs to "shut up" as you've put it. People just need to treat each other better.

I get that you don't care about LGBT rights and that's fine. And you're right in that LGBT individuals gaining equality does nothing to yours. However, every true American should care about equal rights, but I guess that's not the Trump mantra. That's one of blaming hardworking Latinos for the ills of the country, objectifying women (including his daughters) as being little more than sexual objects, mocking the handicapped (and not apologizing for it), unfairly and racially attacking out current president for not being an American when that has been proven many times over and just saying, "I'm good at business, trust me." after going through countless bankruptcies. If you're okay with all of that, well I've got a bridge in San Francisco to sell ya. Say what you will about politics, that guy represents the worst of traits of human beings. It's shameful.

Anyway, the assumption that I'm a Bernie supporter is its own kind of prejudice (i.e. prejudging me on very little information). I'm not sure if you mean to be offensive, but man. Ick! I'll give you the benefit of the doubt of just stepping in it without meaning to.

 

[Drtooth]

However, I think that it would be wonderful for entertainment in general, not just children's entertainment, to have characters on the LGBT spectrum represented better. Non-stereotyped LGBT characters in television and movies, especially media that is accessible for all ages, would have a positive effect on LGBT youth. Sometimes it's easier for people to relate to a character than a real-life person. For a kid to see a hero in one of their cartoons that just happens to gay or lesbian, that could do huge things for their self-esteem.

I think the greatest thing was that show "Happy Endings," if for no other reason that the gay character was portrayed as sloppy, lazy, and vaguely dude-bro-ish. Meanwhile, when someone behind The Millers said "we need a camp gay stereotype to make the show better," which it totally didn't (J. B. Smoov is all they needed and the show was fine), and they went with Sean Hayes doing his predictable routine. Then it was pulled, though partially because it was hurting Scorpions ratings. I guess we can safely say the campy Jar Jar Binks-esque cartoon caricature portrayal of gay characters died with the 90's. After all, the guys behind the somehow a smash hit Will and Grace made that office comedy with the same stock characters, and not only did it bomb, but the same critics that loooooooooved their precious Will and Grace took a righteous dump all over it.

I'm glad that Laikia managed to make a movie where a character you wouldn't think was, reveals he was gay. Thus actually making it a punchline that was funny and tasteful. Not to mention showing a two daddies family for the teaser trailer for Boxtrolls.

Other than that, I just can't shake the odd diversity problem movies have. Passing up qualified, authentic roles for the sake of name recognition is on them. Not seeing movies with not white guy lead roles is on the public. And then there's the interchangeable Asians thing that bugs me because those countries really don't care much for each other. Japan especially has some racist depictions of the Chinese in anime. The only time I really forgive this now is Randal Park, Korean, portraying the head of a Taiwanese family in Fresh of the Boat. He only got the role because he was freaking hilarious. There in lies the catch 22. There aren't a wealth of certain actors of certain ethnicities, and because none of them are name, most of them are completely overlooked and stuck doing background character on TV roles. But as they're in those roles, they aren't promoted enough to make a name. Look at when they needed an Asian character in an 80's movie or TV show. It's either going to be Sab Shimono, James Hong (hey! Uncle and Dao Long Wong!), and Ken Watanabe. Diversity is at the mercy of Hollywood names, casting, and of course, an audience that gets totally alienated by not white characters on screen.

But back to the subject at hand. Frozen. Now, I stand by my statement about it being overrated as far as merchandise is concerned. I at least can get behind the movie overturning Disney's formula of strong female role model who only gets married on her terms about wanting more out of her life, only to turn into the very same tea and party dresses flat merchandising mascot because that is actually what a majority of girls want. Or programmed to want. But frankly, I'm hoping in less than a year's time, we're completely blanketed with Juddy Hopps and Nick Wilde (and especially Flash) merchandise. I want to be sick to death of this thing I love by next year.

 

[FraggleFrick]

Is this a LBGT thread or a Frozen thread? PHILLIP!

 

[Drtooth]

I take it back.

Now we can't even use LGBT because detractors use that sarcastically as well.

 

[jvcarroll]

Is this a LBGT thread or a Frozen thread? PHILLIP!

Threads at Muppet Central are for everybody. So censoring the thoughts and opinions of others is not okay. The LGBT topic has a current direct connection with this one. You might want to eradicate the thought of LGBT people in your life, but you cannot do so on the threads of this forum. LGBT folk are Muppet fans too. Actually, LGBT folk are Muppet performers too!

This sort of latent bigotry is tiresome. The "let's just not talk about gay people because I've already said what I want to about it" is quite self centered. If you don't have thoughts on that, skip those posts. It is that easy, fella.

 

[jvcarroll]

I take it back.

Now we can't even use LGBT because detractors use that sarcastically as well.

Hehe. You can use LGBT. By the power of San Francisco's Tenderloin District, I grant thee permission. Ha! As if I had it, but you know what I mean. People will try to turn anything into a negative. It exposes a lack of anything intelligent to say. Most people are like Drumpf. They speak about what they do not know with the belief that if they say it loud enough with enough gusto that it will somehow make up for their lack of research. It's the same effect of yelling loudly at a deaf person. It stupid and it doesn't work. But it's kind of fun to watch sometimes. Ha!

 

[D'Snowth]

People will try to turn anything into a negative. It exposes a lack of anything intelligent to say. Most people are like Drumpf.

Yep. Like that nontroversy he started up around the holidays where he said it's supposed to be un-P.C. to say, "Happy Holidays," instead of "Merry Christmas," because as far as he's concerned, being an American citizen automatically means you're a Christian, and therefore automatically celebrate Christmas . . . but the thing of it is, America is made up of different people who celebrate different holidays, and you just can't always assume that everybody you meet celebrate Christmas, which is why we kind of have to say, "Happy Holidays," it's a nice blanket greeting that covers everybody and everything. Otherwise, we have awkward moments like this:

PERSON #1: Merry Christmas!
PERSON #2: Thanks, but I'm Jewish.
PERSON #1: Oh, my bad.