Interesting Gulf War News

[Drtooth]

Originally posted by Fozzie Bear


I do know more about WWII than I do WWI. Are you discussing the war with Hitler? In which case, if memory serves correct, we wouldn't have been involved had Japan not bombed Pearl Harbor; and had we not gotten involved Germany would be bigger, working under a totalitarian government and there would be no means for dimplomacy. Not to mention (as there is with Saddam) that there would still be mass genocides to this day. I also have to wonder how many Jewish folks would be around had Hitler not be stopped!

Well, it was a working theory. Germany fell on hard times because of WW1, Hitler stepped in, blames the Jews for the short comings, etc. So, I wonder if stopping WW I would have prevented Hitler. Of course, I have to read up a lot more on this.

Anyway, the reason why Saddam is ****ed up is because his Uncles taught him hate. I don't even have to expoand on this. He wrote a pamplet called, "Things God shouldn't have created: Persians, Jews and Flies" (I suppose next they'll smash a plane into a beehive or something, j.k.) you figure that one out.

I just can't stand this. I mean, we swooped in to WW 2 and we won it. If it wasn't for us, they would never have been defeated. But after that we had such a big ego trip, we decided to help fight everyone else's battles (which is why we're in this mess) I mean, after WW 2, we should have done what we did after WW 1, stay the heck out of it. In fact, when all the European countries punnished Germany (for the first one) the US stayed out of it, they didn't want a part of it.

of course, in a perfect world, both Bush and Saddam would fight each other in a steel cage grudge match. Of course, like all world leaders, they make the citizens fight it for them (the ONE reason that I hate war. Bar none. I hate cleaning up other people's dirty work.) But that's it from me.

 

[tomahawk]

fozzie bear, in your last post you said that iraq downed the wtc and pentagon. there is no evidence that iraq had anything to do with it. and on the note of liberation, do you recall a little thing called the iraq/iran war? well during that time the u.s. department of commerce officials granted export licenses to numerous us companies to sell anthrax, bubonic plague and various incecticides to baghdad. yes we supported iraq just like we supported nazi germany by selling them ammunition and like we supported the taliban(last years enemy) by giving them over 40 million dollars to support thier "war" on drugs. these biological weapons were being sold to them even though there were many warnings that they were intended for there active chemical-warfare program. again, things are not what they seem. and this thing about dropping leaflets to tell the civilians to stay out of the way? come on.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Originally posted by Drtooth
of course, in a perfect world, both Bush and Saddam would fight each other in a steel cage grudge match. Of course, like all world leaders, they make the citizens fight it for them (the ONE reason that I hate war. Bar none. I hate cleaning up other people's dirty work.) But that's it from me.

Ditto that. I always just wished the countries' leaders (during conflict) would play dodge-ball and whoever got hit with the most balls would lose--plus, nobody would have to die that way.

Talking to veterans of WWII I don't think they had egos, and I don't think that the US had one, either. After all, even when we nuked Hiroshima (that was in WWII, right?) we paid to have them restored, and vets that came from WWII were such as Charles Schulz who created Peanuts.

I think we are in the realization that the US is a superpower, and in the events that we may possibly be harmed in the future then we SHOULD use that superpower status...IF we are in agreement with allies. I would not suggest we go anything alone for the reason that then we could be the bad guys. I don't think, though, that the US would use its power in a non-democratic way--after all, we are wanting to set the people of Iraq free of their dictator, and ultimately save their lives.

A LOT of the world's problems come about by people teaching their offspring and youth 'hate.' Here in the south, it's oh so prevalent, and I hate it. Pun intended.

fozzie bear, in your last post you said that iraq downed the wtc and pentagon.

You're right, I did; but, I'm breaking the rules and play at MC Forums while at work, so I'm normally on the phone or rushing while posting here. Ultimately, It should have read as this:

..but what are you angry about? That we're attacking Iraq or that Al Quaida (sp?) downed two huge buildings and the Pentagon and killed all those civilians?

More to add to that statement is the fact that Saddam has stated his support of them (which nobody has seemed to take note of yet).

I believe that the US has delivered (maybe not dropped over) the pamphlets to Iraqis regarding what is going to happen. We are a diplomatic country with a democracy; I doubt we'd be that hipocritical of what we stand for. Bush said that the innocents are innocent unless they help attack or strike back.

Tomahawk, I am just wondering if there is any pro-American views on your behalf and, knowing your history as well as you do (superb studies I should mention), do you have any ideas that could offer an alternative to what's going on out there right now?

I heard the interview on the radio with the Iraqi man who came here to get away from Saddam's rule and who shares quite the same idea about all this as I do, so I'm confused when I hear folks from America or free countries downing these plans.

Plans, not planes.

Keep in mind, too; I'm not trying to personally attack anybody, and by all means keep your own opinions as I'll keep mine--I'm not trying to sway anyone into what I think, just rebutting. After all, we're all Muppet Fans here and still a family, and I don't expect any of this to come between any of us.

Otherwise, that would be hipocritical over everything "I" believe in.

 

[Luke]

It's always interesting to hear as an anti-war point people talking about how bad things could get after it all goes down - people said that about Iraq the first time and the Middle East all turning against us, then the same stuff when we went into Afghanistan - nothing much happened at all. Just have to wait and see !

 

[MuppetsRule]

Tomahawk

Could you please clarify your position for me. From your posts and statements I am lead to believe that it is not so much the war on Iraq you are against but rather you are anti-Republican or anti-Bush. For example:

a) All examples you have cited regarding dodging military duty during the Vietnam war happen to be very prominent Replublicans or their supporters (Bush, Cheney, Delay, Limbaugh). While I do not know enough about the military records of these individuals, it is a well-known fact that during the Vietnam War many affluent and influential people avoided the draft by either pulling strings or attending college, whether they were Republican, Democrat, or Independent.

b) The website that you have provided the link for is SOOOO obviously anti-Bush that it is hard to take it seriously. The name of the website itself tells you that.

c) First of all , of the 15 terrorists who blew up the wtc buildings, not one of them were Iraqi. ****, none of them were Afganistans either. But 11 of them were from Saudi Arabia. Why not go over there and start blowing things up just because there might be the slightest chance that they are training and or funding more terrorists.

By this statement are you seriously implying that President Bush was wrong to order the invasion of Afghanistan? Seriously? The fact that none of the 15 terrorists were either of Iraqi or Afghanistan nationality is irrelevent. It did not matter to Bin Laden what nationality you were, as long as you held the believe that all Americans were evil and to be hated. The truth of the matter is that the Taliban regime, the ruling party of Afghanistan at the time, supported and knowingly allowed Bin Laden and his network of terrorists to train on their soil and harbored the brutal criminal who was directly responsible for ordering the attack on the World Trade Center.

As far as Saudi Arabia's support of terrorists goes I'll admit there are many questions that need to be answered regarding their shady financial support of terrorism while pretending to support our war on terror.

I'll also admit that I do support the President's decision to go to war with Iraq, but there are also many times when I waiver on that support and wonder if it is the right decision. All we can do is inform ourselves as much as possible as to both sides of the issues and form an intelligent opinion from there. I believe that I have done that and come to the conclusion that in this case war is warranted. I also believe that your point of view is well-informed. War is not something to be taken lightly. It should be seriously debated and I thank many of these posts for contributing to that and for bringing out both sides of the issues.

 

[SgtPepper]

I have an Idea for a horrible reality show that everyone will watch.

Capture Sadam and send him to an island far away with 20 of his men. They will have only water to survive on. But somewhere on the island we hide a handgun!!!

Seriously, I'm anti-bush and anti-war... not just anti-war cause I'm anti-bush.

But speaking of war. I think that Austrailia is like one of the few places that can beat the crap out of America. Just think theyve got all those dangerous creatures down there. On the balltefeild they would just launch bags of rattlesnakes to bite the crap out of the soldiers. And as long as they have The Crocodile Hunter. The aussies are unbeatable. Just think of it.

"Whoa there goes my Arm... I'll put it back on at the zoo !"

The guy is un-freakin harmable!

But I'm off topic. I do think that Sadam should be dethroned. But I'm not gonna war about it.

And as for this whole Sadam vs. Bush steel cage gruge match... I'm all for it. How come they have to make other people do their dirty work ? Simple... They don't care !!! If there is a war, after it bush is going to say something like "I give my prayers to the familys of the lost lives..." He does mean it but he could care less just as long as he beats Iraq and somehow goes down as a hero!!

 

[tomahawk]

what i am doing is posting things so that maybe some people will read different things concerning this mess. the whole thing about staying out of the draft was written so that you might make the connection that to commit people to be in harms way you should have been available to do it yourself. heres another example, clinton, bush sr. and reagan were made to show all of their military activitys. bush jr. was not. why? these are just some of the things i am finding out and researching. in my thirty-one years i have finally learned to question everything. this will be a very scary time and you don't have to tell me we are going to be at a "code orange" or ask me if i want freedom fries with that.

 

[GPrime1]

Sorry I'm late getting to this thread, I just have a few things to add:

I'm not sure that it was meant as suggesting that Bush not attack Afghanistan after 9/11, as Al Queda at the time had much of its operation base there. I think the concern was whether or not shifting gears to go after Hussein with such an abrupt action without really solving the Bin Laden question has a lot of people questioning Bush's real motive.

I question basing an entire argument whether to go in or not based on a radio show where ONE Iraqi gentleman called in. I'm sure there a quite a few Iraqis out there, specifically ones living in Iraq, who probably won't enjoy waking up tomorrow with bombs blowing up over there heads.

Not all of the Iraqis who have died in the last ten years have been because of Saddam &Co. The US embargo plays a factor there too...

And finally, about WW I, interesting point. I think it was unavoidable personally, you have to remember that at the time there was a lot of support for war, it was still seen for its glory rather than its reality. Most people going into that war thought it would be over fairly quickly (as they do in the case of Iraq). Problem with that was no one was prepared for the kind of war that ensued. Military strategy had not caught up with modern technology. Same goes today. The US could very well bring the world into a war that is does not know how to respond to, despite CNN's colour-coated terrorist level chart. Also in leading up to WWII, the League of Nations proved the inefficacy of the international community in policing itself by not intervening against Italy when it invaded Ehtiopia (in 1936 I think, but which of course was a violation of international law). Sound familiar?

Personally, I think Bush should got off his horse and get together with Saddam for a beer and shoot the proverbial s***, or each other. And hey, maybe if we send each of 'em a copy of the Muppet Movie they'll see the world can be a better place...

 

[tomahawk]

GPRIME1,

Well said. I think the two should get together over a beer and watch The Muppet Movie. It would save a lot of innocent lives.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Originally posted by GPrime1 I'm not sure that it was meant as suggesting that Bush not attack Afghanistan after 9/11, as Al Queda at the time had much of its operation base there. I think the concern was whether or not shifting gears to go after Hussein with such an abrupt action without really solving the Bin Laden question has a lot of people questioning Bush's real motive.*

True. I wondered that last night during a conversation w/ friends about the Bin Laden thing, and wondering where we were on that.

I question basing an entire argument whether to go in or not based on a radio show where ONE Iraqi gentleman called in. I'm sure there a quite a few Iraqis out there, specifically ones living in Iraq, who probably won't enjoy waking up tomorrow with bombs blowing up over there heads.

I felt it was a valid point, because you will notice that the sentiment of this gentleman is the same as many of the Iraqis (at least the ones they show on tv every once in a while), the Iraqi soldiers' willingness to surrender, the mass pilgrimage of Iraqis from their own country to US or other places...that's proof enough to me that these people realize they're under a dictatorship of blood and horror and would like to get out. They won't say it unless they are OUT of that country because otherwise they get shot. If indeed one of the major reasons Bush wants to oust Saddam is to liberate the people of Iraq, rock on!

*Also, does anyone not seem to realize the threat that Saddam poses to the US and the world? If he maintains the manufacturing of military weapons, and he openly supports Bin Laden and the terrorist groups, he will sell or maybe give those items TO Osama's gang and where are we then? Heckuva lot worse off then we could imagine.

Nobody is saying that ALL Iraqi deaths are the fault of Saddam, but a freak who goes into his own country and kills its citizenry--not it's military or such, just it's regular petty citizenry--has a serious problem. He tested chemical warfare on HIS OWN PEOPLE and laid their bodies up on a big building and one of my roomies in college who was there fighting during Desert Storm saw this and had photos (yuck).

And hey, maybe if we send each of 'em a copy of the Muppet Movie they'll see the world can be a better place...

100% agreement, and I wish we could have thought of THAT like 2 years ago.