In Defense of the TV Films

[Duke Remington]

IMHO, this is the movie where we first saw Steve do what he wanted to do with Kermit instead of trying to channel Jim's Kermit. Before, I thought he was a bit too much of a pushover for Piggy (like in MTI), which is saying something because I'm a huge frog/pig shipper.

True. However, some of their recent appearances, particularly a good chunk of their guest appearances and interviews, still depict the frog as a pushover to the pig, though.

 

[Ruahnna]

True. However, some of their recent appearances, particularly a good chunk of their guest appearances and interviews, still depict the frog as a pushover to the pig, though.

I'm going to agree AND disagree, and parse the difference. When Steve first took over Kermit, there was tendency for Kermit to give way to Piggy in many of their interactions. I think you can see it in many places, but two specific examples are the way Smollet reacted to Benjamina in MTI--Jim's Kermit would not have been so sweet and melting and apologetic. He would have stood up for himself a little, or objected that the script stipulated that he deserted her a some unspecified point int he past, and told her she was milking his character's contrition and demanded to know what the heck she thought she was doing dating a pirate behind his back. He would have put Piggy on the defensive, at least. The other very clear example of Kermit being rather soft-serve is on the album Kermit Unpigged. (If you have never listened to this album all the way through, then you really should. Layla and I played it in my car when she visited and just about ran off the road we laughed so hard. It's like listening to a video in the background--you don't have to see what's happening to "see" what's happening.) Kermit hems and haws and waffles all over the place--charmingly so, but still. I have always attributed that (correct or not) to the fact that Steve was--at that time--working with Frank Oz, whom even Jim and some of the first folks thought had crazy-mad skills. So I think that Kermit gave way not just because he was giving in to Piggy, but I think that Steve was adjusting to performing Kermit (new) and to holding his own against Frank without being disrespectful. (Jim and Frank had such a strong working relationship or affection and respect that--in character--they could say just about anything to each other without fear of offending. Later, Steve became more confident, and then when Eric took over for Frank, Steve was in the lead again and Eric was the one getting used to the relationship. That point, however, unfortunately coincided with the Powers That Be's plan that--ta da!--the marriage never happened and, in fact, Kermit didn't even like Piggy. In fact, he never liked her. He had always thought her offensive and rude and fat and unwatchable...charming. It is a period that I found painful to watch. Even on TMS, when Piggy obviously overplayed her hand with Kermit (time and again), you never really believed that he didn't care for her. His jealous rages, his admiration of her figure and her shoes, his awareness that he could tweak her by making goo-goo eyes at Annie Sue.... These were all things that were funny because we knew, when push came to shove (and it usually did), Kermit would be trying to scrape back into her good graces. If you doubt that he felt fond of her, watch the Tony Randall episode--he hugs the statue she's been turned into and speaks so tenderly of her as a person that I just want to hug him. When Steve was developing Kermit's personality as more of a "playa" and a prankster, we saw none of that gentleness. It was mean, mean, mean all the way. (I think I've already explained how I feel about mean humor.) But by the time The Muppets was in the planning stages--and you can also see it in the Disney things that led up to that time--the tide was turning back. Lo and behold, Disney discovered (perhaps because of Jason's fan/professional lens) that the fans actually liked it when Kermit was a jerk to Piggy. As for Piggy being unkind to Kermit, well, I will quote Professor Higgins' mother when he complains that Eliza chucked his slippers at him. "I'd have thrown the fire irons at you!"

Princeton, sweetie, I tried to think what I wanted to say back to what you said and I just can't think of anything to say. We differ so widely on our opinions about both Piggy and Fozzie that I don't think we have enough in common for you to see where I might try to approach their characters. I'm sorry you don't like Piggy--she is quite the pet and very much admired by many, myself included. I imagine there is not much in The Muppets for you either, since she was heroic in spite of very little possibility of personal gain, generous with Kermit even after he embarrassed her, lied to her, replaced her and refused to acknowledge his need for her until it was almost too late. I don't know that I think Fozzie is the emotional center of the muppets, but I have always found him to be a bear of great heart and sensitivity, even in his failed attempts at humor. I found the fart joke beneath him.

No prob Aunt Ru. BTW: Was it you or Layla who did a oneshot about the characters in character costume from MWoO? And where would I find it?

Do you know, it's not in the FanFic Library Index, although it IS in the FanFic Library as a thread call Woo-hoo! Here's the link:
http://www.muppetcentral.com/forum/threads/woo-hoo.52910/#post-955931

I'm enjoying this discussion very much! Anybody else want to jump in?

Ru

 

[AquaGGR]

I was actually very fond of LTS and VMX, the only one I have major problems with is MWoO. I already talked about it in another thread, but yeah, that's the only Muppet production I fully dislike (Studio DC was alright, MWoO was intolerable).

 

[The Count]

Thanks Aunt Ru, I'll check out after this.

I honestly have no problem with the fart shoes. Maybe if they had been called "whooppee" shoes people wouldn't be so hung about that one insignificant little detail? Then again, we're fans. Quibbling over every singular little detail is our will and wont.
*Ducks the cannon aimed at the crowd by Wilkins.

 

[Drtooth]

And Dr. Tooth--you are correct that the overall tone was...mean. I am pretty much against unnecessary meanness in general--it's why I cannot find anything worth watching in shows like South Park and The Simpsons and Family Guy. That sort of harsh, mean-spirited humor has no place with the muppets.

It wasn't even so much mean as dark. I could see Piggy being mean as a villain. Anytime she's depicted as one she is kinda nasty. But an all in good fun, cartoonish nasty. Her passive aggressive portrayal of the Wicked Queen from Snow White (both in Muppet Babies and the Muppet Snow White Comic) was just amazing. Here, she seemed not to be so much jealous of Dorothy, so much as she wanted to slowly torture Dorothy to a painful, slow death. Instead of getting an over the top, wacky villainous Piggy, we see something that comes out of a very dark place (if you want to canonically think of the movie as them being actors playing these roles). Doc Hopper wanted to flat out KILL Kermit, and he's still less dark than Piggy was. I'll admit that Piggy's over the top performance as both "good" witches was done better.

And I get they're trying to do an "homage" to The Wiz by making the Witch and her Monkeys a biker gang... but other than some pretty okay moments with Johnny, it just came off as a knockoff than a tribute. They really should have portrayed the Witch and her gang as something more innovative.

Then you come to the flawed experiment of having Piggy be the villain. It throws something off, and I can't pinpoint it. This is the first project where the villain is a Muppet instead of a human, and it kinda shows why they've stuck to that formula before.

But above all... Wizard of Oz is a tale overtold and completely in the shadow of that famous movie. Until Wicked came, every Oz retelling failed. Even ones that were clones of the 1939 film (that short lived 1990's DIC cartoon). They really should have picked one of the many other scripts that had more promise at the time.


As for LTS. I really do love it, but the short run time and rush to get the project made gave the project a feel of watching the first 20 minutes of a movie then the last 20 minutes of a movie and missing out a HUGE chunk of the middle. It feels like something should have happened between Kermit and Co being at the airport and getting to the North Pole.

 

[Ruahnna]

Oh, foo. I've a houseful of unruly teenagers and I posted without proper proofing. (Those of you who know me know how I am....) The typos I'd suffer through, but there was one spot where my meaning was totally not what I meant to say.

But by the time The Muppets was in the planning stages--and you can also see it in the Disney things that led up to that time--the tide was turning back. Lo and behold, Disney discovered (perhaps because of Jason's fan/professional lens) that the fans actually liked it when Kermit was a jerk to Piggy.

Why I was trying to say was that fans actually liked it when Kermit WASN'T a jerk to Piggy. I'm not saying that everyone agrees that they are a perfect lovers. I'm just saying that we liked seeing Kermit be the Kermit that we all expected--friendly-like, to borrow a phrase. If Kermit can have compassion and fondness for Fozzie's neediness and Gonzo's craziness and Pepe's greediness and Beau's slowness, then surely there is something there that could respond to Piggy with compassion. It's obvious that he fancies her, and that--given, say, 15 or 20 years--he'd get around to asking her out. Fans responded more to Kermit's sweetness than they did to his fat jokes.

As I've pointed out in other threads, the premise for The Muppets presupposes that the entire group fell apart when Piggy left. Not left the show--left him, left Kermit. The muppets as an acting group could have held it together if Piggy had simply left the troupe, but she didn't just leave the group. She walked right off the stage, and right out of Kermit's life. If he'd hired another pig then (or a camel or a giraffe or Annie Sue), then the show should and could have gone on. (Don't tell Piggy I said that.) But the fact that she left the show wasn't the problem. The problem was--no matter what he said to the contrary--Kermit just couldn't get along without Piggy. Once she left, he couldn't go on, and the group eventually drifted apart. That's why, at the end of The Muppets, when Kermit is morosely contemplating the half of their wedding picture with Piggy in it, and she surprises him and asks (indirectly) why he kept the picture every single one of the other muppets leans forward in suspense to see what Kermit is going to do. If he can find the right words to make Piggy stay, then they know that things won't fall apart again like they did before when she left. If he can admit that he needs her, then he'll have everything he needs, and then he'll make sure everybody else has what they need. See? Kermit takes care of everybody, but the only one who care really take care of Kermit is Piggy.

Then you come to the flawed experiment of having Piggy be the villain. It throws something off, and I can't pinpoint it. This is the first project where the villain is a Muppet instead of a human, and it kinda shows why they've stuck to that formula before..

This is actually a pretty profound observation. The muppets usually don't play villains, in part because they are incompetent at it (like Bobo), but also because the muppets at heart are really teachers, and most of the time they win not so much by conquering over their enemies, but by inviting them to share their fellowship. Thank you, Dr. Tooth!

 

[The Count]

Posted by Ruahnna: "Oh, foo."
Foo-Foo: Yes?
Oh, hi. Haven't seen you since that shoot for Piggy's calendar.
Foo-Foo: I've been keeping up with, well, the less said about that "common" woman's family the better.
Okay, er, can you wait till we're done here?
Foo-Foo: Sure. *Flounces off.

You know, I can see an agreement in that assessment. The one point of The Muppets where it's shown that Kermit truly does miss and need Piggy is in the Paris street stroll sequence. But Piggy doesn't let herself be sweettalked into joining just for joining back's sake. And though Kermit tells everybody she's not coming and they have to move on without her, it's clear he does. Which is why when she does join back with the rest of the troop, Kermit has to admit to himself and her he wanted her all along, resulting in Piggy being so happy she had to share her happiness with only nine out of the top ten publications in the world out of respect for Kermit wanting some privacy in their private lives.
Foo-Foo: That's something I liked... When Kermit talked about the reporters following him on that date Miss Piggy set up, only for him to realize that he'd better make a move on his girl before he lost her for real.
You mean in KG?
Foo-Foo: Of course.

Okay, just checking. Night all. *Leaves back to the dorms through the flue network.

 

[Drtooth]

This is actually a pretty profound observation. The muppets usually don't play villains, in part because they are incompetent at it (like Bobo), but also because the muppets at heart are really teachers, and most of the time they win not so much by conquering over their enemies, but by inviting them to share their fellowship. Thank you, Dr. Tooth!

It's not like you can't have Muppet villains. Certainly Wander McMooch is a pretty villainous character. But the villains we usually get are comic relief (Polly Lobster and Clueless Morgan), or not really villains at all, but still antagonistic (Mrs. Finch). I think there is call to have a villain in a Muppet project that is a Muppet himself (certainly seems the case for Constantine in the next film), but it just can't be one of the main cast. Unless it's an all Muppet production and they're just playing. Casting Miss Piggy as the Witch actually seems like a solid idea, but it throws certain aspects out of whack... It would have been something for Piggy to break character and feel genuine concern that Kermit was okay in a couple scenes. But they made the character far too dark and not playful enough. Having her film a reality show/snuff film wasn't playful.

Still, when it comes to Muppet movies and longer narrative Muppet projects, I really like the sweetness of Piggy and Kermit being a couple. That was missing here because of casting choices. I'll say that's more excusable than MFS, when Piggy and Kermit were on cruise control the entire time.

 

[D'Snowth]

I like how EVERY SINGLE FROGGIN TIME we have a thread like this, inevitably, somebody has to throw MFS bashing into the discussion when we weren't even discussing MFS in the first place.

 

[Drtooth]

I like how EVERY SINGLE FROGGIN TIME we have a thread like this, inevitably, somebody has to throw MFS bashing into the discussion when we weren't even discussing MFS in the first place.

It's not so much bashing as making a point. MFS and MwOZ are the only two movies in which Piggy and Kermit's relationship are absent (I'm not counting KSY, as she wasn't in it). Oz at least has the excuse of Piggy being the villain. You look at MTI, and the plot of the book was completely altered just to put Piggy in there, and even then it explored their relationship.